22 Sides
22 Sides is a podcast that will let you get to know some fascinating people and keep up with many things that are happening in and around the Houston area.
22 Sides
Art, Ancestry, and West Texas Nights with Wilma Schindeler
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We sit with Wilma Schindler—artist, writer, and West Texas host—as she reads Tiny White Snake and two new poems, then talk about grief softening anger, art as repair, and the way symbols can hold a family’s history without erasing its truth. The desert, the body, and a flute in the key of C round out a conversation about making, meaning, and being seen.
• Tiny White Snake reading and meaning
• anger softening to grief through ritual and art
• Snake Hill Asylum and generational trauma
• painting ancestors and healing after the fact
• poems as bridges to compassion and connection
• snakes as symbol, guide, and creative motif
• West Texas stays, dark skies, and silence
• wildlife, seasons, and the Big Bend drive
• returning to music and improvising by ear
• community spaces: Imprint, open mics, Mucky Duck
• truth, memory, and being ready to share
Check out Wilma’s rentals at:
https://www.wilmaschindeler.com/vacationrentals
We hope you will listen often.
For more information, visit our website 22sides.com
Okay, great. So thank you for listening to 22 Sides. This is Robin Mack and Alexis Melvin. And today we have a dear friend, Wilma, here with us. Wilma, would you like to introduce yourself, say a little something since it's on a camera podcast? Okay, sure. My name is Wilma Schindler, and um I don't know what to say.
Wilma- Guest:I'm kind of a new artist, kind of a new writer, poet, um and more importantly, Robin's friend.
Speaker 00:No, I was gonna say Arrow's keep Arrow's mom.
Speaker 03:Yes, yes. We love our fur pals. And Arrow is handsome and he's such a little love bug. And I've been watching some of your your passions, your multi-passionate, a little bit of painting here, a little bit of uh what were we making disco balls recently?
Speaker 02:I made disco balls and a disco skull.
Speaker 03:That's so cool. I mean, when something breaks and you can repurpose it, or wait, did you break glass to make it happen? Okay.
Speaker 02:I get mirrors and I smash it with a hammer. Great.
Speaker 03:Okay, so are you having like passion fitness, smashing it and then passion crafting, or like what's going on?
Speaker 02:I don't know. I don't I'm not really thinking that much. Not that into it. I'm just doing it.
Speaker 03:Good.
Speaker 02:And I love it. You're in the zone. I I am in the zone, and especially with that particular project, because you're looking for pieces that fit together so there's not space between the pieces. Right.
Speaker 03:Yeah.
Speaker 02:And so, you know, and you want it like, okay, with the ball, you want it to be round without point things sticking out. Yeah. And then with I have a skull, like a not a long horn, but a skull with horns. And uh, you know, there's contours on that. Right. Yeah. So it really the time goes by so fast.
Speaker 00:So this one you get on a real skull. Uh-huh. Okay.
Speaker 03:Yeah. Right, because Wilma has another passion where she has uh some stay case spaces out in West Texas.
Speaker 02:West Texas, yeah. I lived in Marathon for eight years and was fortunate enough to get some properties, and then my partner Al and I have some properties together. And so we have some Airbnbs out near Big Ben National Park.
Speaker 03:So you probably get some natural skulls out there.
Speaker 02:That's where that one came from. But I've been asking around and nobody has any, so I might have to just I might just have to order my new skulls off of Etsy.
Speaker 03:Okay, Etsy strikes again. We'll have to support another artist.
Speaker 00:Yeah, I've always thought, given the number that I see for sale on like Etsy and and some on eBay, that there are a group of people that just scour the desert for skulls.
Speaker 03:Uh yeah, maybe, yeah. Little hunters as they walk and travel. So today, would you like to share your writing with us or you don't have to?
Speaker 02:No, I would like to. Okay. And this is something that I wrote in February. And I'm gonna uh I'm gonna try to do it from memory as much as possible, but I'm gonna have my my little script here just in case. Sure.
Speaker 03:Let's do it twice. Okay. So how about you read it once, very confident, and then you do it from memory the second time. Okay, sure. But first, is there any context you want us to know, or we're just going in with we're just gonna go in with it. Let's go, girl. Let's go.
Speaker 02:And it's it's entitled Tiny White Snake.
Speaker 03:Wonderful.
Speaker 02:Yesterday I got a new tattoo. I didn't tell anyone, not even Al. It's small and white. The smallest one yet, hardly noticeable. However, it might be the most significant tattoo I have. It's on my right middle finger, the finger that had cancer in the nail bed. It's in the space between the knuckles. It's a very small snake. On my way to see Nadia, my tattoo artist, I was thinking about my mom, and it's how it's coming up on the anniversary of her death. A few tears rolled down my face. I was also thinking about my grandmother and my aunt Jeanette. I was thinking about the snake I want on my middle finger, a finger that typically represents anger when it's used to flip someone off. I was also thinking how my anger is starting to soften. I thought about my grandmother at Snake Hill Asylum and the generational trauma that's been passed down to her children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and maybe even great-great-grandchildren. The anger, distrust, sabotage, competition, and dishonesty, the lack of softness, the stiff upward lipness, and on and on. I then thought about this small snake I want on my finger and thought about the symbology and what it means to me. It's a reminder for me to allow my grief to s to allow my anger to soften to grief, and then I can sit with my grief and feel it, and I will be okay, not consumed. It's a reminder that it's okay to shed skin and continue to grow even into my old age. And even this thought crossed my mind that maybe in the divine order of the universe, my grandmother, Alfonsina Panzini, went to Snake Hill Asylum for the very reason to let future generations know that the snake represents growth, renewal, and wisdom, and that it is really okay to feel the grief of our family history and to feel the grief of our own personal histories. And in the richness of that grief, we will find the courage to shed the skin that weighs us down and emerge with fresh, new, glistening skin. Maybe at some level, my grandmother was setting the stage, at least for me, to grow, soften, and learn compassion and connection. It's a lifelong journey when I'm grateful to be on. And when I look at that snake on my fuck you finger, I'm reminded of my mom Josephine, my Aunt Jeanette, and my grandmother Alfonsina. I know without a doubt they are proud of me and are grateful for the healing work I'm doing. I can feel all three of them loving me. My anger is slowly turning to love. As I look at the snake now, I'm reminded to soften my soften my anger to grief and to allow my grief to be expressed and seen. It might just be one tiny tear rolling down my cheek. Even that small expression is honoring my grief, honoring my mom, honoring my aunt, and honoring my grandmother. I'm reminded to slow down and feel and know that that is enough. Shed old skin and keep growing. And as I was sitting in my car waiting for Nadia to arrive, listening to XM Radio, a familiar song came on and I saw the words White Snake. They were playing that song. I'm not sure of the title, but the lyrics are Here I Go Again on my own, going down the only road I've ever known. Those lyrics used to speak volumes to me when I was a younger woman after yet another of many breakups. And even though the band White Snake was singing those lyrics, it occurred to me that they no longer apply. I can shed the skin of that belief. I no longer identify with having to do this life alone. Another thing the snake is teaching me. And that's when I knew that my tat my new tattoo had to be white, a tiny white snake.
Speaker 01:Wow.
Speaker 03:Let's just let that ripple and marinate for a minute. Thank you for sharing that with us. And then do you want to say it again from the heart? Uh well, I can try. Well, wait, wait, we don't get the notes.
Speaker 02:Well, I wouldn't I just want to hold them in case I need to glance.
Speaker 03:Yeah, sometimes I think it's just even with the intention, if you don't get it word for word, it still resonates. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Take your check. That's a lot. It's beautiful.
Speaker 00:And I guess we could say take two.
unknown:Take two.
Speaker 00:I have a clapboard somewhere around here.
Speaker 02:Yesterday I got a new tattoo. I didn't tell anybody, not even my partner Al. It's small and w it's it's very small. The smallest one yet. It's hardly noticeable, but it might be the most significant tattoo I have. It's located on my right middle finger, the finger that had cancer in the nail bed. The tattoo is between the two top knuckles. It's a small snake. On my way to see Nadia, my tattoo artist, I was thinking about my mom and how it's coming up on the anniversary of her death. And a few tears rolled down my face. And then I started thinking about my grandmother and my aunt Jeanette. And I was thinking about how I want the snake on my middle finger, the finger that typically represents anger when it's used to flip the bird off. And I was thinking how my anger is starting to soften. I thought about my grandmother at Snake Hill Asylum and the generational trauma that's been passed down to her children, her grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and maybe even great-great-grandchildren. The anger, the dishonesty, the competition, the sabotage, and the distrust. The lack of softness, the stiff upward litness, and on and on. I thought then I thought about this this little snake and what the snake symbology means to me. And it occurred to me that oh I then thought about this little snake I want on my finger and thought about the symbology and what it means. It's a reminder to allow my grief to soften. Or it's a reminder to allow my anger to soften to grief, and that I can sit with my grief and feel it, and I'll be okay, not consumed. It's a reminder to shed skin that I've outgrown and continue to grow even into my old age. And even this thought crossed my mind that maybe my grandmother, Alfonsina Panzini, was sent to the Snake Hill Asylum to let future generations know that the snake represents wisdom, renewal, and growth. And that it really is okay to feel the grief of our family history and to feel the grief of our own individual histories. And in the richness of feeling that grief, maybe we'll find the courage to shed the skin that weighs us down and emerge with fresh, clean, glistening skin. Maybe at some level, at least for me, my grandmother was setting the stage for me to grow and soften and learn compassion and connection. It's a lifelong journey and one that I'm glad that I'm on. And when I look at the snake on my fuck you finger, I'm reminded of my mom, my aunt, and my uh grandmother. I know without a doubt that they're all proud of me and grateful for the healing work that I'm doing. I can feel all three of them loving me. My anger is softening to love. And as I look at the snake now, I'm reminded to soften my anger to grief and allow that grief to be felt and seen and expressed. And it might just be one tiny little tear rolling down my cheek. And that small expression is still honoring my grief, honoring my mother, my aunt, and my grandmother. I'm reminded to slow down and feel and know that that is okay. To shed old skin and to keep growing. And as I was sitting in my car waiting for Nadia to arrive, I was listening to XM Radio. And the words White Snake were on the monitor. And they were singing a song. I can't remember the lyrics. I mean, I can't remember the title, but the lyrics are Here I Go Again on my own, going down the only road I've ever known. That song used to speak volumes to me when I was a younger woman after yet another of many breakups. And even though the band White Snake was singing those words, it occurred to me that they no longer apply. I no longer identify with having to do this life alone. Another thing the snake reminds me of. And then it occurred to me in that moment that my new tattoo had to be white, a tiny white snake. How do you feel after that? Um, you know, I don't know. I don't know how like embodied I really am when I read this. I mean, because I've read it so many times. Like I used to not be able to get through it because I'd be crying all the time. But um, but it feels good to put my story out there. Yeah. You know, like because people have we none of us have any idea of what any of the others of us carry with us in our daily life and in our bodies and in our head, you know, and so I think for me sharing this story about myself and my ancestors, my mom, it I don't know how to say this. It helps me to connect with people more really on a human level. Wow. How for you? Like I can see how as a listener, people might be more related to you if they have a shared experience, but how for you because I come from a family where we are very stiff upward lip. And success, success, success, success is very, very important. And and there's nothing wrong with that. You know, I mean, we all have to have a bit of drive. But I've realized in my life that that drive isn't healthy for me. What works for me is to go inside. Maybe a little too much, but whatever. Who gets to say? Wilma gets to say, but um so sometimes I think that I present myself out to the world as being a bit untouchable in some aspects because that's what I learned, you know, like to keep my and so this, yeah. So this, I think, with me sharing this story, it helps me take that down. Wow, you know what I mean? Yeah, it hyponizes you for other people. Yeah, yeah, I can relate to other people and then I can be more approachable. Like I can approach other people and people can approach me.
Speaker 01:And it's a certain tone than how we present ourselves out to the world.
Speaker 03:Absolutely. It it definitely has like a caring layers of caring throughout the whole poem versus I'm putting white snake on my finger so fuck off in general, right?
Speaker 02:You know, like no, that's you know. See, that's all very interesting. Why not cancer in the nail bit of finger? And then um, yeah. And then I have been so angry at my family for so many years and years and years. And and I also don't think it's all my anger. I think it's generational anger that's gotten passed down.
Speaker 03:And I know that at points where you have your uh what do we call them, staycase or your rentals, you've had uh yoga and writer retreats. Well, we've had yoga retreats. Okay. Yeah. Um so not writing retreats.
Speaker 02:Well, you know what? They're worse. There was a a few poets that rented one of my houses during uh COVID and they did a Zoom uh poetry writing workshop over a long weekend or a week. So I guess we have, you know, I didn't provide any of the meals or anything, but they did stay there.
Speaker 03:Were you included in that or when did you start writing?
Speaker 01:That was before I started writing. Okay. When did you start writing? Just this year, really. Okay, so this is very new. This is very new.
Speaker 03:Thank you for sharing this with us because people don't always share it, right? They they put it on the page, they get it out of themselves, they have their processing, and then they don't necessarily share it. And is this your first external sharing of your writing? No. Okay.
Speaker 02:So there's this place not far from here called Imprint. Okay. I don't know if you know where no, it's over there near the Manil. And um on Fridays, they have the first Friday readings, and that's for poets. Okay. So this is more prose or short story. But um, so I do have so I I paint as well. Sure. And so I've painted a portrait of my mom and a portrait of my grandmother. I start with my grandmother, and and I wrote a poem for her, and I wrote a poem for my mom.
Speaker 01:That has to do with the snake and generational trauma and and I read those last the first Friday of this month.
Speaker 03:Okay, so this external part is just happening.
Speaker 02:We're like on the customer. Yeah, okay. And I read it. Yeah, and so that's just nice because it's it's just exposure, you know, like getting used to being in front of people and sharing in a way that I am hopefully more embodied because I can get up in front of people and do stuff.
Speaker 03:I can't imagine you're a stranger of that.
Speaker 02:But not I'm not necessarily embodied, right? Yeah, and that's important to me.
Speaker 03:You're in a you're in a certain role doing a certain thing.
Speaker 02:And like, yeah, I can like straighten up and then this is very personal.
Speaker 03:Yeah. How have your paintings and your poems been received around the imprint presentations? Yeah, well, nice, simple, clap.
Speaker 02:Yeah. Somebody's now this a couple people came up to me afterwards and said that they like the paintings in the poems. So that's great.
Speaker 03:We had Kathy Crawford on one of our episodes, and she was sharing about different poetry um open mics and how they're actually, in her experience, very friendly and inclusive and and very like understanding that this could be the first time that someone's reading, or they might not make it all the way through, or you know, everyone's just very like helpful. Yeah. Yeah, or there's published poet there. Yeah, yeah. So there's everything. That's great. So it's good to hear of another uh experience in Houston, actually. Yeah, and I'd like to find more poetry open like this because well we'll see, because she left a long list, so we'll make sure you have her stuff and have you ever met her along the way? I don't think I have. That doesn't work for me, so we'll make that happen. We'll make that happen.
Speaker 00:For those of you who don't know, this people not meeting each other is not okay with Robin.
Speaker 03:Well, I'm like such a bridge builder, but but you and Kathy have a lot in common. And and and uh and and I think that'd be great for you to share some futures because some of the writers' groups that she's a part of go out and intentionally support each other's offerings, whatever it is. But sometimes it is um writing, but sometimes, you know, like there's a lady this uh tomorrow, tomorrow having a felt class at the Young Center. So well, once you're a passionate artist, you tend to do a quite a few different things. So it'd be neat for you to get to know them.
Speaker 02:Yeah, and I'm kind of at a place like I needed to hole up and do this for a while on my own for whatever reason. Sure. Uh but very internal process. Yeah, but now I'm feeling like I guess because for a long time I didn't feel safe sharing that part of my being that vulnerable out in the world, sure, you know, like from a place of authenticity. Yeah. And um, but now I'm kind of ready to start making those connections.
Speaker 03:Well, and and I'm talking like on an art level, but I imagine your process of embodiment from generations took a lot of listening. You know, I mean, that's hard when you're in a group of people to process their thoughts of your work. You know, you should it I'm glad that you started with yourself and listening, you know, through generations first.
Speaker 02:Right, because I had to, I mean, I'm 63 years old, so I had to get to a place where I know without a doubt that this is my truth. Yeah, your core, you're pointing to your core. This is my truth, and and other family members might not have the same experience as me. Very important to age. That's okay. That's absolutely okay. That is totally okay. But I had I have to get to a place where I know without a doubt what my truth is, and you know, and I'm a believer that our life is our teacher. And so if when I start getting out there more with my work, whether it's paintings or poetry or prose or what or combination of it, and if you know things come my way that are maybe not so positive, I had to get to a place with myself knowing that this is me and I'm steadfast in this. Yes. And it's not that I wouldn't be willing to hear what a person says, but to know that that's their truth. Absolutely. You know, and and they have every right to have their truth. Yes. And their truth doesn't necessarily have to affect my truth. Yes. And vice versa.
Speaker 03:Yes. And and when we share that visibility with other people, whatever level it is, uh, whether it's writing or your just your personal story or even your craft, like you may not be ready for what feedback you get. It could be like across the board. And some artists, some creators, some people in general are just not about that life. You know, they're like, they're not, they're not gonna share it, or they can't be at the the talk back of what people have to offer. And I think that that's that's absolutely okay in itself because that's a whole nother process part. That's a whole nother phase part, you know, and you don't have to go there if you don't want to. But I'm glad that you highlighted that even in families, we all have different versions and narratives, and like that's all a different thing.
Speaker 02:And it you know, it all depends on your birth order, your gender in that family. Even if you're around and the age of your parents when you were born. Definitely. My family, there's a 15-year spread between the oldest and the youngest. Wow. And I have one younger sibling. So my parents were as old as a lot of my friends' grandparents when I was growing up.
Speaker 00:I I I hate to say this, but there's some of us that have even a wider spread than that.
Speaker 02:Yeah, no, I'm sure. Yeah, yes.
Speaker 00:My sister's 18 years older than me was.
Speaker 03:Yeah. That's a lot. Do you have any thoughts or comments on what she's talking about?
Speaker 00:Oh, a bunch of them. Yeah. I have a question. Can I ask you a question about your piece?
Speaker 03:Yes. Yes.
Speaker 00:And and this is an observational question, so don't take it personally. Well, take it personally. I don't care. There were a couple places in there where you weren't comfortable with the words you were using.
Speaker 02:Maybe, yeah.
Speaker 00:And and I was just wondering, are there a couple places that you're still having trouble getting it exactly the way you want it?
Speaker 02:Uh, you know, I think it's just because I'm nervous. Okay. Because when I was doing this at home yesterday, and I had it completely memorized yesterday by myself. Uh-huh. You know, not in front of people with all this equipment. Um, it's a microphone. Yeah, so I think that there was a couple places I got um confused and where I didn't use the right word. Like I didn't use the word that I had written down. Um, but that's a good observation. And there might be a few places in there, you know, because it's pretty heavy piece that there's still a lot of emotion that I'm sure I have not processed all of it.
Speaker 03:Yeah, I'm nodding too, because I think there was one place where you said have to get back to love. And then I think maybe on your writing it said to grief. And it's like but I I think that's beautiful because when a lot of times when we're doing art, what we think is gonna happen and then what we present might be two different things. Yeah. You know, it's sort of funny because before you got here, we were talking about something that uh was it did they call it their symposium that yeah, there was a Houston symposium that happened in June for the LGBT community trying to highlight a place in history in Houston specifically where a lot of people came together to look at what were they gonna do with the AIDS crisis. And that what it's coming up on an anniversary date for that. So some artists got artists together at the art league to talk about well, what can we do now to remember that time? Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Speaker 00:And what we were talking about was the fact that there were a lot of people there who aren't young, shall we say. Uh and you know, they were sharing their stories. And the differences in the stories, um, most of them I've known for years and years and years. And and it the the stories evolve over time, and some of them soften, some of them harden. And and you know, it it it's the type thing where um I think I'm not sure. I guess probably San Antonio that I in the talk I was in up there, I was pointing out that, you know.
Speaker 02:Well it is, and you know it kind of changes as we age because we don't always remember stuff. Yeah, or we don't remember what we used to remember, right?
Speaker 00:So what you thought was one way as you become a little bit uh wiser, you're like, maybe it wasn't exactly that way.
Speaker 01:It wasn't all about me.
Speaker 03:Yeah, but that's what I'm kind of like Or maybe you get some more facts. The more you tell the story, someone contributes history pieces or facts. It's like, okay, well, that kind of changes perspective a little bit, but the original perspective was still something to be honored. Right.
Speaker 02:Yeah, I had a sister that spent a few nights with me the end of last month. She was driving from one part of the country to the next. And I haven't always had good relationships with my sisters, and but this was really nice because we were probably the most tender we've ever been with each other. And that was really sweet. Yeah, and um, but she shares some stories, you know. But uh but but this time her stories were validating to my memory. Interesting.
Speaker 01:Yeah, that was like, yeah, thank God.
Speaker 03:Yeah, a relief, right? Like I was thinking of a time, Alexis, because you know, she's speaking, Wilma's speaking of grandmother energy and how it sort of paces your life trajectory and and to some degree and influences that. And you had a grandmother that was a quilter, and she created something before you were born, and then you found out later on that it really was point on point for your life trajectory.
Speaker 00:My grandmother Melvin uh, you know, was interesting because number one, she baked really good cherry pies.
Speaker 03:Really good cherry pies.
Speaker 00:And the other thing was that when members of her close family, someone would be usually just before they were pregnant, she would start working on a quilt for them for the baby.
Speaker 02:Before they knew they weren't pregnant? She had a premonition.
Speaker 00:Yeah, and she would start working on the quilt and have it done about the time that they were being born.
Speaker 03:Little witchy. I love that. Yeah.
Speaker 00:And, you know, like my brother got a quilt that was, you know, little boys, sort of thing.
Speaker 02:So she she knew she knows if the baby's gonna be a boy or girl.
Speaker 00:Yeah, my sister got a quilt that was little girls, you know, my in-laws, however they were, uh cousins got quilts that were boys or girls, etc. And I I didn't get a quilt. And so eventually I asked my dad, I'm like, why didn't I get a quilt? And he said, Well, you did, but your mom won't show it to you.
Speaker 03:That does not sit well with the lexics.
Speaker 00:This is not gonna work. And so finally.
Speaker 02:How old were you when you asked that question?
Speaker 00:Eight or nine.
Speaker 03:Okay.
Speaker 00:You know, I mean it was it was like And you're 76 now. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 03:Uh huh.
Speaker 00:So this was a long time ago. And so finally they had an argument, and my dad gives me the quilt. It's boys and girls. Very good. And and you know, that and my mother's like, oh, that we can't do that. No, it can't happen, etc.
Speaker 01:And I'm like, your grandmother wins.
Speaker 00:And and it was funny because my mother didn't like me to go see with see her very often because she's like, Well, I don't want you learning all those witchy things.
Speaker 01:So you kind of had a healer. Your family.
Speaker 00:Yeah, or something.
Speaker 03:Or an instigator.
Alexis-CoHost:According to her, we were druids. But um, and you know, that was the only reason I liked to go see her is because Well, because you probably connected with her. Oh, yeah. And then the other part was that when I come back home, I've learned very quickly that the only thing I talked about was cherry pie. Yep, made cherry pie again.
Speaker 04:Yes.
Speaker 00:The question would be how did we make cherry pie in the winter when the cherry tree wasn't producing cherry? Didn't matter to my mom. She bought the story every time.
Speaker 02:These frozen cherries from the year before.
Speaker 03:Yeah, the stories we're comfortable with and the stories that make us uncomfortable, the ones we share, the ones we don't. Like when some of these things were boiling up in you, you said first with Inger and whatnot, would you say that the art and crafting some of the writing, some of your paintings, maybe even the disco balls have helped process these things? Oh yeah. I mean, I have poems for all of them.
Speaker 02:Wow. So sometimes the poems come first. Um but the interesting thing about painting my grandmother, I uh I started painting my grandmother, and I never knew my grandmother. My mother never knew her mother. My grandmother was put in the asylum when my mom was six months old, and my mother and her siblings were split up and put into orphanages. So maybe not even pictures. I have a picture. Oh, okay. Yeah, that my my mom's older siblings have. So it was a picture of my grandmother, and she was a young woman before she got married. And so it was kind of interesting. I was painting her, and they're both portraits, so it's very much their face, you know, and you're like that far from their face, kind of creating this. And anyway, um, yeah, so I so it is really nice to spend that much concentrated time. And it was more like my grandmother, I didn't know her. I just know the stories. My mom I knew, and my grandmother didn't live to be an older woman. My mom did, and I and I painted a picture of my mom when she was an older woman, and spending that much time just like with her face, and one night I remember I'm gonna start crying, I had a dream about my mom where I was just like tenderly touching her face, which I don't think ever happened in real life, you know.
Speaker 03:So um sometimes we can do that healing afterwards, and the person doesn't have to be there, and it's it's just good to point that out in case someone has unfinished business, you don't have to do it alone, you don't have to be an artist. No, and the person doesn't have to be there. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. That's beautiful.
Speaker 02:Yeah. So I mean, I've I've heard that, you know, when you do your work, not only are you helping to heal future generations, but you're also helping to heal your ancestors. Wow.
Speaker 03:So have you gotten any sort of feeling, um, maybe intuition on the fact that you have healed them? Was that in the line of they would be proud of you and you're they could be proud of it?
Speaker 02:No, I I have a couple. Can I read the poems I wrote about my grandmother and then the one I wrote?
Speaker 03:Should I get some tissues? Um, I don't know. Okay, get some tissues.
Speaker 02:These are the ones that I I wrote read in uh in print, the first Friday readings.
Speaker 03:Um very much a hinky fan.
Speaker 02:Okay, this first one is called Alphonsina and her snake. And so I was trying to strong name. Yeah, I was trying to figure out a way to take this tragic event and put a positive twist on it in a way. So anyway, Alphonsina and her snake. Years ago she stood her ground, now she wears that snake as a crown. She took that fall and it was fast. Would anyone ever hear her call? I hear her now loud and clear. She tells me things, she has my ear. She was strong, she wasn't wrong. They took her away, she had so much to say. Her words were silenced way back then when all the power went to men. Her voice had scared them, her truth a threat. They locked her away. I hold her regret. She loves I love you, she says, more than you think. I see you shining, and then she winks. Don't cry for me. I did what I could. Now that you know I want you to grow. Love your life, it's full and bright. You don't have to feel my strife. Then she says as she stands tall, they sent me to Snake Hill, but I did not fall. Even there, I spoke my mind to myself as I did my time. But please don't let it get you down. Now I wear my snake as a crown.
Speaker 03:Wow. That's so empowering. I'm goosebumps. That's awesome.
Speaker 02:And then my mom is called eye to eye. All right. So both my my grandmother and my mom, and I haven't painted my aunt yet, but she'll on the line soon. Yeah. They both have snakes in their paintings. And this and this one of my mom, my mom and the snake are looking at each other eye to eye. Whoa. So this is called eye to eye. Josephine looks that snake in the eye. No longer does she cry. She used to be so afraid, sad, scared, and mad. She felt overwhelmed and over her head. How did this all happen? Sometimes she wishes she was dead. Her life was not hers. All of those chores. Constantly she wished she could say no more. No to the yelling, no to the cooking, no to the cleaning, no to the put downs, no to the demands. Her voice stayed silent. It came harshly out of her hands. It was never her job to take care of him, be his bitch, go out on a limb. He didn't appreciate what she did. He didn't see she was afraid, raising the kids he didn't want made. For most of my life, she seemed far away. She stared a lot at that undetermined spot. She struggled so much. She wasn't seen. She went through the motions. This was not her dream. Did she ask for help? She didn't know how. So she just yelled and beat and hit and screamed at all the little people and through all of the things. It wasn't our fault. We had to hide. Always it seemed like she was so mean. But now she looks that snake in the eye, holding hands with her mom up in the sky. They wish it could have been different for them and for us. They are filled with warmth as we slowly learn to trust. So the snake that Alfonsina wore as a crown and that Josephine now looks at straight in the eye has become a mentor, a teacher, and an ally. Here to teach us to love, fight for what's right, let go of old skin, and not hold on too tight. Patiently they wait for each one of us as we head their way on that one-way bus. There will be an understanding, a knowing, if you will, that familiar pain we all feel so much. It was that snake, that snake with no skill. It was never supposed to hurt and scar us for life, but give us a way to look for the light. As turned around, twisted, and strange as it seems, that snake leads the way to the light, a pathway to the unseen. As we courageously take that turn beyond what we know, the snake leads us to a place, a place of dignity and grace. You can really hear the difference. Yeah. With my mom and grandmother, and yeah.
Speaker 03:And you can hear the difference in your reading and your confidence and your and and what's polished and what's still becoming. And is your aunt still with us? No, there are my aunt was actually the last one.
Speaker 02:Um she died in 2006 or seven. Yeah.
Speaker 03:So there's I I like how you're linking the the women together in your work as well. Yeah, and it's interesting.
Speaker 02:I'm my current painting I'm waking working on now is kind of big. And it's a combination of like what I've done with the disco balls and the broken mirrors. I have a big white, three-headed white snake. Uh-huh. With and and the body is made of those broken mirrors. Um and so, yeah. So I I I was talking about it with Al the other day, and it's like, yeah, I think this is all three of them. Wow. It's and I think the name of that's gonna be Beautiful Trilogy and Shattered Reflection or something like that. I don't know. But still, anyway, it's about then is the white snake and the snake. Yeah. And snakes, even before I had all this come to me, you know, snakes have ever since I started painting, snakes were always important.
Speaker 03:What about the snake?
Speaker 01:Besides is it because of what it symbolizes or well, because my grandmother was in Snake Hill Asylum. Right. So that's part of it.
Speaker 03:But also I like snakes.
Speaker 01:You do?
Speaker 03:Mm-hmm. In person?
Speaker 02:Not necessarily in person. Okay. I think I like the idea. I like the idea of snakes. I mean, I mean, I've seen many living out in West Texas. I bet. Um but um I like um, you know, those coach whip snakes, those red racers, those are fun because they're friendly snakes and they eat the rattlesnakes. But um they're your friends. But um, you know, I like I like photographs of snakes. Like I have a friend that I knew when I lived out in Marathon, and he and his wife were nurses, and but he, as a hoppy, his whole life has raised and bred snakes. Wow. So he had rooms of aquarium, you know. Yeah. And so he po posts all these pictures of all these. Uh-huh. And the whole reason I got an idea for doing a three-headed snake is because he posted a picture of a bicephalic snake, a two-headed snake. Wow. And it was white. Wow. And so I love looking at those pictures and I love seeing the markings.
Speaker 03:Wow. Maybe, maybe that, you know, inspired some things, obviously. And you know, oh yeah, yeah. People talk about how animals can have meaning or guides or inspire, and and it sounds like there's a lot of that in in your work.
Speaker 01:Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's always snakes.
Speaker 03:Yeah. I mean, it just wouldn't be the same thing.
Speaker 02:Everything to paint, you know, because they're easy.
unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 03:Yeah.
Speaker 01:So squiggly line.
Speaker 03:Oh my gosh. This is amazing. Thank you for sharing.
Speaker 00:We have a friend, Ricky.
Speaker 03:Yes.
Speaker 00:That that is a snake person. Oh, really? Yeah.
Speaker 01:She will go. Does she raise snakes or does she go snake hunting? She she both.
Speaker 03:Yeah, and she'll relocate them for people in case they get found and that way they don't get uh armed. She'll go in and relocate them. She's worked at exotic animal spaces, and now she's working, I think, with more nature trails and uh doing things with the uh I'm drawing a blank. Um the arboretum? Yes. Yes, yes, the arboretum.
Speaker 00:Yeah, and she's teaching classes and and showing some of her snakes and that sort of stuff.
Speaker 03:What classes does she teach? Well, educational. She wants people to not be afraid of them. She wants people to to know to know the difference between the ones that they should look out for or not. Did she teach him at the Arboretum? I think so. And I she'd she'll just do it. Like if you want to bring her out to um your neighborhood or you know, um to your scout situation or whatever, she'll do it. Anybody know anybody. A birthday party. Yeah, exactly. I'll make sure you know each other. Yeah.
Speaker 00:I was about to do that.
Speaker 02:Just to bring a friendly snake that I can hold, because I've never held a snake. Absolutely. She is four people?
Speaker 03:No, I'm just giving it one. Possibly I can't keep promising, but she'll try. But uh for her thing is is if somebody is scared about it, she'll gently help them rehab about that and like immersion therapy nicely sort of situation. Uh, we'll hold your hand about it. And uh yeah, I'm so thankful that I know someone that does that work because not all of us can be around snakes. And uh, and so I'm one of them. I I uh I have a a very kind understanding that they do what they do and I do what I do. And I it's it's hard for me to even see pictures or hear about this. So, like the the reason why I can hear about it from you is because um I just I just love you so much. But uh, you know, sometimes I have to snooze your account because every now and then it'll be like, boom, Wilma's painting, and it's like, ah, snake, even a painting of it, you know, it's triggering and bring it up, you know. But I snooze Ricky's account all the time because if she's not posting pictures about owls, I probably shouldn't look over there. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 02:She'll be like, I'm not posting as much as I used to. Like I used to post paintings in progress. And I've on this one for the.
Speaker 03:I was into your flower ones, but your snake ones will go back into it.
Speaker 01:This one is flowers and snakes.
Speaker 03:Yeah, and and and that has nothing to do with your work or your reflections, but it has to do with how symbolism impacts me. But I appreciate the snake guide symbolism, uh, because it it does offer something positive. But other than that, I can't see them or think about them for too long. So um otherwise I'll have nightmares. So that's just my thing. Yeah. But um I just uh I'm thankful that you're sharing this. And so if people wanted to connect with your spaces out in West Texas, where can they find your rentals?
Speaker 02:Well, they can find them on my website. Okay, which is what? Wellnesschindler.com. Can you spell it? W I L N A S C H I N D E L E Rot C O M. Wonderful. Well, how And then there's a vacation links page. It's a very old website. And I don't think our Alpine house is listed on there. But we have two houses in Marathon, one house in Alpine, and two trailers and 40 acres on Terlingo Ranch.
Speaker 03:And it really is beautiful. There's a lot of stars. Yes, I have it.
Speaker 02:Well, it's a class one dark sky.
Speaker 03:Yes, and I think if people don't know about the dark sky movement, we have so much light that impacts our visibility to see the stars at night in major cities. We really can't. But when you go out there, it's amazing.
Speaker 02:Yeah, and there is a Milky Way from my front door.
Speaker 03:Yeah, and there's a a star space museum. I don't know.
Speaker 02:Star party. Star party at the motel, marathon motel, which I share a property line with, and they do that every night as long as you know it's not a full moon and as long as the weather cooperates. Yes, and they have telescopes, all kinds of telescopes. They have two buildings now that have retractable roofs that people from all over the country, it might be all over the world, but I know for sure all over the country are sitting home on their computers, operating their camera equipment in those buildings. Wow. Doing astrophotography. Wow. Taking pictures of nebulae. That's the only word I know. Sure.
Speaker 00:The first time I was in Marfah, it wasn't planned, but it was.
Speaker 02:Yeah, it's the same thing there.
Speaker 00:You know, it sort of worked out. And it was like three in the morning or something, and uh we were flying some. Well, we were flying to uh South Padre and a storm came in, and so we had to detour around it.
Speaker 02:You landed in Marfa.
Speaker 00:Yep.
unknown:Wow.
Speaker 02:It must have been in a tiny plane.
Speaker 00:It was a very small plane and we landed at one of the fields that isn't a field, but it's okay because Border Patrol Medic gave us a ride to the motel.
Speaker 04:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 00:But you know, middle of the night came out, and I'm like, this is weird, something's really strange. Because no lights. You can actually see shadows from the stars.
Speaker 02:Mm-hmm. And the moon.
Speaker 00:Yeah, the moon. Oh, that was like a super spotlight. But when it was just stars, I could look around, I could see shadows, you could read the newspaper under the stars. And and yeah, sort of like, yeah, this is what it was supposed to be like. It wasn't supposed to be like the cities with all the pollution and all the light and everything else. But but it's really cool because it feels totally different.
Speaker 03:Yeah, and everybody out there is real nice and welcoming, and and whether it's marathon or MARFA, and you can get out there and see different art. They have big sculptures out there, uh, different designs that were never meant to be in museums, and they made, you know, in and outdoor exposure spaces for them to be out there. And it's probably better to go when it's not really hot, but even if it is, there's plays, there's ways to manage it. And and it cools off in the evenings because it's desert.
Speaker 02:The desert, no. And the other thing is that there's not humidity, so it's it's a dry heat. And I'll I'll tell you this during during normal times, the hottest months are May and June. And it typically cools off in July and August because that's a monsoon season, so the afternoon rains come. It hasn't been very typical in the last several years, but like Houston this year, they've had a really mild summer. That's good. And a very wet summer. So it's been nice. We we were out there in April, and we specifically went in April because we wanted to see the wildflowers and the cactus in bloom. Well, that it was so dry. It was nothing was in bloom. It was scary. And then we went out in July, the end of July, and it was like Ireland. It had some rain and things were blooming, and yeah, I like being out there. Um I like the way my house is situated because even though it's fairly close to town, the way it's angled, you I don't feel that. I feel like I'm pretty secluded.
Speaker 03:And by town, you mean like one strip road uh and town of 450 feet. There's like a small little grocery store. It's a small town or fifty feet. Yeah.
Speaker 02:But um, but I just like to go out there and listen to the silence. You know, like watch the watch nature. And when we're at Casa La Vista where you and Jay stayed, that pond attracts so much wildlife. And arrow, your dog likes to go out and play with like big animals, right? Well, he likes to charge them. He he thinks they want to play with him. So they they end up charging him, and he thinks it's a game.
Speaker 03:What kind of wildlife do you get out there?
Speaker 02:Um, well, there's javelinas, there's deer, um, there are foxes, coyotes, snakes, you know, tarantulas, scorpions, ducks. We have ducks that go between our pond and the pond at the motel. They go back and forth, they fly between those two, you know, and hawks and vultures and all kinds of birds.
Speaker 03:And if it's blooming season, there's a really nice flower garden and marathon that you can go walk around. Across Highway 90 called the Gauge Gardens. That was really nice. And you know, we're talking a lot about heat and whatnot, but ACs are great in West Texas. Like you're you don't have to be affected by it if you don't want to. Yeah. You're not far from Big Bend if people wanted to go even more hiking and and doing things and yeah, it's about a 45-minute drive from Marathon to the entrance of Big Bend National Park.
Speaker 02:It's a beautiful drive because it's all ranch land. It's all private branch land. There's not one billboard in sight. Um, and maybe you'll pass one or two other cars.
Speaker 03:Yeah, yeah. Well, are you looking forward to anything as you close out the year besides maybe possibly sharing your pieces at the moth?
Speaker 02:Yeah, um, well, uh sharing my piece at the moth, I'm taking an intuitive painting workshop with the woman that my intuitive painting coached that kind of got me started. Nice. I haven't done that in a while. Um, I have a couple, you know, besides the painting I'm working on now, there's two others that I really want to do that I've thought about. So and I've been also playing my flute. Okay.
Speaker 03:Yeah. How does the flute come into it?
Speaker 02:It just centers you or well, you know, I I have the same flute that I had since I was in fourth grade. And I was very active in school in band, marching band, orchestra, wind on some point. I did, you know, all of it. And um, and I was really good. And I was also in this group called the Young Tulsons. I grew up in Tulsa. Okay. And um, you know, you had an audition to be, and it was made up of high school students from all over Tulsa. And we toured Europe one year, and um but I never played by ear. I didn't know how to play by ear. And so, you know, my partner Al is a musician. He used to be back in the 70s in that band Spirit, and he never learned how to read. So we can say he probably didn't read music at all. He doesn't, he still doesn't. And um, so anyway, one day he told me to go get my flu. He wrote a new song because I told him, well, if you ever write a song in the key of C, maybe I could figure something out because my fingers would know what to do. There's no sharps and flats. Nice. And so sometimes we'll just come around and they came back, and yes, are you two jamming? We are. We'll sit around and we'll just kind of play back and forth without you know, we have a few songs worked up. And then um, but yeah, so I mean, and I don't care, I don't really care if I ever perform with my flute in front of people, but I love sitting and jamming and making music. Yeah, that's cool. Like just letting that flow. Yeah. It's kind of the same thing with writing and the same thing with art. Like it's just as long as I can stay out of my way, it'll happen.
Speaker 03:And do you and Al ever go to jam sessions or host any? No? Maybe there's something there. I don't know. I don't know. Does he still play in Houston?
Speaker 02:Yeah, he plays at the Mucky Duck. The next one is October 13th, I think.
Speaker 03:Okay. So if you uh if you're in Houston over off of Norfolk and want to check out the Mucky Duck, look for a really handsome gentleman named Al, and uh maybe you'll see a vodacious babe in the audience that may or may not have a flute. So we'll see.
Speaker 02:Yeah, he's playing Saturday at the Saxon Pub in Austin this Saturday.
Speaker 03:Nice. Well, thanks for coming in and sharing with us. This was fun. You're welcome back anytime. We just like to have some chats and kind of point Houston's other.
Speaker 00:I always have a last question.
Speaker 03:Yeah, what's your last question? Yeah. Last question is with Alexis.
Speaker 00:One of our friends always has another question. My real question is so what did we not talk about that you wish we had?
Speaker 02:Oh, today. Oh, there's so much.
Speaker 00:Oh, you can't just get by with that. You gotta at least give me two or three.
Speaker 02:Okay, well, Robin and I know each other from the massage therapy world and the yoga world. So, I mean, we can talk about girl, we can draw in the body, how the body holds on to stuff, what happens when that's let's go. We can talk, we can talk about the challenges of being a massage therapist. Absolutely. Or a yoga instructor, or how for me, yoga has been a really like important part of my growth as a person. And when I fall down the rabbit hole, then I have to kind of reawake, I have to start from the beginning with yoga because my body gets so tight. So, anyway, there's so much. There's so, so much we could talk about.
Speaker 03:Um, well, do you want to come back or do you want to keep rolling? Well, I'll come back. You'll come back. So a little uh little cliffhanger, a little to be continued. Yeah. Okay, perfect. Yeah, that's absolutely great. I I am so uh just I have a lot of gratitude for sharing space with you on this journey. And it it hasn't been like a lot of space, but it's been a bit over time, and we have a lot of mutual interests, and it's just beautiful to be in your space. And well, I have the same thing for you, Robin. Thank you, thank you. And I look forward to uh our next episodes where we can share space together. So thank you for having me. Yeah, thank you for being here and thank you for listening. If you're in Houston or afar, we welcome you to come in to the mucky duck and imprint and the moth and just kind of enjoy the city because there's a lot to be had. It's it's it's a whole different uh space than West Texas. And if you're in West Texas, check out Wilma's rentals because they're they're just beautiful, they really do have a really neat skyscape and um a really wholesome feel. And I felt not just safe, but welcomed by the city, and you don't always get that everywhere, so check it out and uh make a trip. Thank you, Robin. Yeah, thank you, Alexis.
Speaker 00:Nice to meet you finally. I mean, I've heard a lot.
Speaker 03:All right, I think that's it.
Speaker 00:Thank you.
Speaker 03:Mm-hmm.
unknown:Are we off?
