22 Sides
22 Sides is a podcast that will let you get to know some fascinating people and keep up with many things that are happening in and around the Houston area.
22 Sides
From Trauma to Truth: Reclaiming Your Personal Story
What happens when the systems meant to support us become the places that cause the most harm? In this deeply moving conversation, Jacob shares his journey from surviving personal trauma to creating spaces where others can reclaim their narratives.
Jacob's story begins with his own experience of feeling silenced after a difficult breakup, when he found himself without a platform to share his truth while his ex controlled the social narrative. This personal pain transformed into purpose when he launched his podcast "Power of the Narrative," creating space for people whose stories might otherwise go unheard. From working with families of missing persons to supporting those recovering from abuse, Jacob has developed a powerful approach to narrative justice that centers the voices of those who've been marginalized.
"I was labeled as too much throughout my life," Jacob explains, "and now I can hold space for stories that are deemed too much." This profound shift from being silenced to becoming a witness for others' truths forms the foundation of his developing nonprofit work, which aims to make mental health resources accessible regardless of financial status or identity. Through narrative healing circles and community-based support, he's reimagining what mental health care can look like when it's designed for those traditionally excluded from therapeutic spaces.
The conversation takes unexpected turns as we explore the complexities of support groups that sometimes cause harm, the power dynamics in storytelling, and the political dimensions of whose narratives get centered in public discourse. Jacob's insights into narrative domination - how some people control the stories told about relationships, communities, and even historical events - offers listeners valuable tools for recognizing and challenging these patterns in their own lives.
What emerges is a powerful reminder that reclaiming our stories is essential not just for personal healing but for creating more just communities. As Jacob powerfully notes, "If they can choose their narratives, why can't people who want to heal do that too?" His work stands as an invitation for all of us to consider how we might better support others in telling their truths and how we might more authentically tell our own.
Find Power of the Narrative: https://open.spotify.com/show/1AhVcR2NBwstdm4C4qPrUQ
To connect with Jacob check here: https://www.powerofthenarrative.com/
We hope you will listen often.
For more information, visit our website 22sides.com
Thank you for inviting me on.
Alexis:It was a hello, fair warning Mics are live and we're recording. That's the only warning you will get.
Jacob:No farting, no kidding.
Alexis:We don't care. Basically, what we try to do with the podcast is we don't worry about outside noises or weird things, because it's a conversation. It's not we. We can do scripted podcasts that sound like a radio interview, but we prefer not to. We prefer to sort of have oh gosh, let's you know.
Jacob:Yeah, we're having a conversation with friends I um, yeah, I'm a little nervous because I I'm um, it's always, it's always about oh wait a minute.
Alexis:I like nervous. What are you nervous about?
Robin:Well, okay, yeah, let's touch base Now, you notice, and this is just this is just for the people that can't see.
Alexis:As soon as I asked the question, somebody sat up really straightened looked up where they sound different.
Jacob:I um, definitely. You know I do a lot of things. I'm nervous about how it comes off to people if people get confused when I explain different things. And honoring that I don't have it all together and that's okay.
Robin:Absolutely.
Jacob:So, Absolutely.
Robin:Actually, that's a perfect way to be for this podcast, because we wanted a place where people can share their complexities in a casual tone and like leave it there, you know, I mean, maybe it's a shareable track, maybe it's not, you know, but we're having a place where we come together and we connect because, honestly, during the pandemic I outsourced a lot of my community conversations to podcasts where I was like trying to recreate community and what I noticed was was hey, you can click and play and have a buddy right there, but it becomes a blur because by the time you put the commercials in the sponsors, in um, then you don't really get into the meat of the topic and then you also get this like shallow view on a lot of stuff, especially the mainstream podcasts and whatnot. So this is more of a and we get that you know.
Alexis:We interview politicians and everything too, we get that a lot from the politicians, because they are pretty scripted. Sure, sure, especially the better ones, the ones that aren't scripted, are fun.
Robin:I mean, it's okay to be scripted, but it's just like I don't want to listen to five podcasts to get a tone of who the person is.
Robin:I want to listen to like a decent interview, right, yeah, but I think sometimes we get they're already creating this cookie experience of like um, you it's. It comes off as very like washed and perfect. And our podcast is like look, if you're living a life, you have probably a few hats that you're wearing. You have probably some wear and tear along the way. And I had a lot of people come up to me and during the pandemic cause they had lost some friendships, lost some family, um, maybe moved here for the first time, never got a chance to actually meet people, and they said, like, do you actually know good people? Or?
Alexis:something.
Robin:Like you seem to like life and I want some of that, right, and I said I had to think about it because you know the first person. It's just a little like, well, yeah, I do, and you can and I'll introduce you to some people. When it's like the third or fourth person, I was like, okay, wait, something's wrong, you know, yes, okay, what happened is is the loneliness pandemic was happening before COVID and people, try as they may, you can go to five, six, seven events and never meet anybody. You know and like. Honestly, that's why you stuck out to me, because we shared one event with the LGBT um chamber, business chamber, and I had the experience with you that I hope people have. But again, you can go to 10 events and never have that. Like, we talked, we greeted one another, we had a good exchange, we learned a little bit about one another and then we had an event and then we followed up afterwards.
Alexis:That hardly ever happens. One of the big things about our community is that there's an awful lot of introverted people in our community. And an awful lot of them are struggling to be less introverted, that's true, and I think that allows people to be shut down way too easily. I mean the extroverted people. You can't shut them down for anything, I don't care what you say. There's a lot of science that's behind likeroverted people. You can't shut them down for anything, right? I don't care what you say.
Robin:There's a lot of science that's behind. Like, go to the things you enjoy, maybe you'll meet. You know you already start off with a mutual interest and go to things that you're actually doing something. So therefore you have like a task and, as it turns out, jacob and I were like doing this. We were like putting cookies out for the tabling and stuff so like if I meet anybody over cookies tell me there were cookies.
Alexis:Yeah, there are a lot of cookies there were.
Robin:There were actually two cookies and we had to spread them out per per different tables so anyways, yeah, um, you know it's really funny.
Robin:Like in our community they use this whole like I'm you know, I'm not gonna let people bake your cake for your wedding, like, and when I first heard that I was like, do we have a shortage of that in our community? Like, do we have to outsource this to other people? That it's a problem, because I know a lot of people who in our community that love desserts. Like dessert first. Like life is short, right.
Alexis:So life is short and sugar fixes a lot of things, hey, especially depression.
Robin:Oh, man, man, sometimes I'm caking it well. So how are you two today Like what's the vibe?
Jacob:You said, you two.
Robin:so Both of you. Yeah, but you're the guest, you can go first.
Jacob:Yeah, first of all, this has been a great dialogue, okay so there's three ums.
Robin:No, that's okay. I think you should think about that for a minute because Robin needs to do our opening.
Jacob:This is how informal we are. We forgot to open the podcast. Oh, okay, Okay yes, that's. Right, it's kind of this float. You know I'm okay. So I got laid off in April because the Trump admin thought it was a good idea to cut a lot of research and I was doing. I was a COVID research assistant and we were going to release a lot of research about um long long COVID and everything and they froze all our funding.
Robin:so I've been unemployed since April job hunting and then um what's the ideal job like? Let's throw it out there, do you know?
Jacob:oh my god, I you know, two months ago I would have said research, but now I would say it has to be directly helping people. I have to see people. I like to see my impact. So I've thought about something with community outreach or working with kids. I apply to different ones. One is for a nonprofit with kids, another one is with juveniles, with juveniles. But I like to see that I have an impact on people and research didn't do that. It's like long-term impact, sure, sure.
Alexis:We hope it has long-term impact.
Jacob:So we hope I got into that, because I was pre-med and I wanted to go to medical school once upon a time. So what's wrong with medical school once upon?
Alexis:a time. So what's wrong with medical school now?
Jacob:Nothing, my.
Robin:GPA. What did you finish with?
Jacob:Degree in biomedical science and minor in chemistry.
Robin:Oh sorry, gpa, I don't know. No, no, we're not going to judge, I just meant the degree.
Jacob:You know, I think, looking back, it was hard being a first-generation student. It was hard not having any parental support financial or emotional so much pressure? I did the best I could, and I think med schools weren't as forgiving for that as like other things, so I'm okay with where and you crossed the finish line I did so where you take your journey is where you take your journey as somebody said.
Alexis:That surprised me. There's nothing wrong with letting it lay fallow for a short while and sort of recovering your energies etc.
Robin:I didn't know what fallow meant. Do you know what fallow means? Fallow probably means to relax kind of, but I'm not putting you on the spot, let her say it yeah, Essentially, if you are planting crops, it's an agricultural thing and you know they aren't growing too well.
Alexis:Sometimes you just don't plant crops for a year or two and let the land recover. Yeah, and it, you know, just does its thing, and that's letting things lay fallow.
Jacob:Oh, it's like a break basically.
Robin:Yeah, it's like a break. That's where.
Jacob:I'm at, you know, being on unemployment. I'm getting money coming in to manage my bills, good, but you know, I think it's detaching my worth from a job and money, because that's been a real challenge lately. That's tough. And yeah, I think what keeps me busy is running my podcast.
Alexis:Yeah, Jump into it Like tell us what you got going on You're running a podcast.
Speaker 2:You're starting a nonprofit. I mean, yeah, I'll do it later. I'll do it later.
Alexis:No.
Robin:I don't want to have to put it back up. All right, all right. So all right, jacob. We have to officially introduce ourselves.
Jacob:Okay, that's fine. That's fine, this is a good warm-up.
Robin:All right, I don't know if you do your podcast edits, but we're trying to keep ours easier. Okay, so I'm Robin Mack and this is 22 Sides. Thank you for tuning in on this rainy day. We're in Houston and I'm with Alexis and Jacob. Yeah, Jacob, thank you for being here. Let's jump into it. You are starting a nonprofit, you're running a podcast and you're coming just out of research of COVID. I mean, that's hot.
Alexis:You got to take a break sometimes. No, it's more important Long COVID, Long COVID which people want a lot of data on.
Jacob:That would be me A lot of data on. But people with long COVID have like worse mental health outcomes. So there's actually a. I forgot her name. She was a director on Schitt's Creek. She committed suicide. Wow. She had long COVID so I know that, because her ex-husband is in patient advocacy groups. Wow. Talks about her. So all the research pointed to like long COVID being a condition that impacts people on a lot of body system levels. However, a lot of doctors don't believe it exists really.
Robin:Well, we're just kind of still going on with COVID, let alone long COVID, and it. Are there some symptoms that people should, that should jump out, that they should?
Alexis:I can personally tell you long.
Jacob:COVID sucks Please do you know, since I was, I'd have to go look on Google. That's okay. You're away from it now, okay?
Robin:So if you've got some things popping up. Check out long COVID research the problem is it can affect anything.
Alexis:Yeah. Yeah. Because my guess is it doesn't directly affect anything, but it affects all sorts of nervous system your breathing, it affects your heart, it affects everything sometimes yeah, that's right.
Robin:I think it's also hard because each person already had their pre-set conditions right so, and depending on how hard and when they got it, it probably it's probably like a lot to research it is, it is um, yeah, I.
Jacob:So that's pretty much the research we're doing. You know, I don't like how society is, like COVID didn't exist. Like there's a there's a silent majority of Americans that have long COVID and they're being ignored Absolutely.
Robin:It's incredibly hard and that is psychologically damaging as well, Like just in itself. I have some friends that have never regained their smell that have never regained their taste, and I'm a massage therapist, so people a lot of times will talk to me more than they'll talk to their doctor, cause you know they got that like white coat syndrome or they only got like 15 minutes or they don't even have a doctor.
Robin:you know, it just depends. But they'll tell me, like, like the real daily woes of it, all Right and it is hard. So if you're struggling, struggling, there are some different splintered support talk spaces and uh, different researchers that are going on depending on what the side effects were right, and uh, even with alexis, she was having some balance issues and we said girl you got to get your crystals reset she said that sounds a little too hippie, and I said no, no, it's a real thing.
Alexis:I was having horrible balance issues, got my crystals reset and it's sort of like witchcraft. I mean they have you lay down, they move your head in a certain way and shake it three times, and then move it another way and shake it three times and you stand up and your balance is drastically better yeah, I'm like it's sort of like voodoo slash witchcraft and I'm like but you know what?
Robin:I don't care, it worked. Yeah, we actually have, uh, what they call like crystals in your ears and they help with your balance, and people who have vertigo have to go get them reset, because it's not a neck adjustment and it's not something you can do on your own they work their way into the wrong part of your ear yeah, that's right.
Jacob:Yeah, their crystals, they'll pull on the hairs because it's like Exactly. They taught us the action potentials and how muscles move.
Alexis:Yeah, yeah and, as I said, I just consider it witchcraft or voodoo, but I'm good with that.
Robin:But it helps it helps, so we're fine yeah.
Alexis:You know when you're desperate at a certain point. Some witchcraft is great, yeah, exactly.
Robin:You know where I got the work done. And then some people lead with it. They're like where can I get a voodoo doll?
Alexis:Walking into their therapy area there's a wide lobby that had glass doors and I couldn't walk a straight line across from door to door on the opposite side. I mean, it was like I was totally drunk.
Speaker 2:And after they did it. I could walk straight back and I'm like, wow, different, like quick, like quick.
Jacob:I'm done with this yeah, is that a permanent treatment?
Alexis:like it, mostly permanent. Sometimes you have to have it redone, according to them. I probably need to go back and have them do it again, but because I've started to have a little bit of dizziness problem. But I have a dozen other things that could cause me to be dizzy, like low, low blood pressure and that. So it's like who?
Robin:knows which one it is. That's true? Yeah, that's true. Well, for those that are new to you, Jacob, can you give you know it's not perfect, right, but like an overview of your vision that you're stepping into? Yeah?
Jacob:So it's funny because I actually just was talking with somebody advising me on my nonprofit. I think the the big thing is that, um, I'm passionate about mental health. I feel like mental health can be inaccessible, whether that's financial or you know, based on your identity, like I think there's a lot of people that are trans and non-binary that need support, have trouble finding it. There are people who are like, um, you know, black or other racial minorities, struggle finding their own, like therapist for their experience, and I I think that you know my vision is to live in a world where people don't feel like their, their stuff is too much for someone or they feel like money isn't a barrier to healing.
Jacob:Um, you know, you know what that looks like, um from my nonprofit, which is, um, I admit, still in development, cause I just made, like a month ago, so I get myself ready.
Jacob:But, um, you know, I want to do what's called narrative, narrative healing circles, and so you know what that looks like. Is um, do you like? There's the thing called narrative therapy, but, um, but for people that don't know narrative therapy, it is like you, you work on the inner narrative. You tell yourself, like you know, if you feel like you know, I'm not enough, like, um, you're gonna act like you're not enough right um, you're gonna do things that validate the idea that you're not enough right, whether you know it or not, exactly yeah you know, if you think people leave you, that you're not enough Right, whether you know it or not.
Jacob:Exactly, yeah, you know. If you think people leave, you know you're going to do things that make people leave. And I have.
Jacob:I go into detail about my ex on my podcast. Sure sure, but I, you know, my experience is that I have come from a lot of experience where people thought it was too much. You know, I've had a lot of things in my life where I wanted to tell people, but I knew the truth would drive them away, and I think I think I've seen it. Well, let me rephrase the truth drives the people that aren't aligned to us away.
Robin:Yeah, um yeah, some people can't handle it and they're not ready, and they're not the one.
Jacob:Yeah, exactly, exactly, um. So you know, my work with my nonprofit will be that I make a space for everybody, regardless of background, to have a space to heal, because the idea behind that is group healing. Like. There's a book Y'all might have read this. It's called the Body Keeps Score.
Robin:Oh, I've heard of it. Yeah, I'm not a big reader but I have heard of it Very good book. It's like the go to book for a lot of people to point to.
Jacob:Yeah, because the body stores trauma. So then there's what do you call it? There's group healing at book sites. For me, what I found very helpful were rituals. And so, you know, human beings have used rituals for thousands of years to like, process and address a lot of stuff. And so I was at a point with therapy where I'm like, okay, you know, my therapist just told me for the sixth time, like you know, do this, do that.
Robin:That's like six co-pays, bro Six co-pays.
Jacob:He's like okay, stop going after these types of men. They go back to your dad and I'm like that's great, but it's something about my body, you know. So, um, any, um, any, anyway, like that's my nonprofit work, my, my podcast. Oh, my god, I created my podcast initially honestly to talk shit about my ex. Okay, okay, just being very being very frank, and that's why the first episode of the podcast is me and my best friend going off about her okay, that makes more sense.
Robin:I listened to all of your episodes and I was like, okay, so there's like a few spinoffs, it's fresh, it's just launched, there's a lot that is like has potential here. Or I could totally see you being like, eh, that's a good amount, you know a good amount. I just want to say like we're not a video podcast. We want, wanted to be comfortable and not always, uh, you know, camera ready and do you want to say how you identify for the people who can't see you?
Jacob:Oh yeah, I am a black, gay, cisgender man.
Robin:Um yeah, I like long walks on the beach. Okay yeah, all right, throw it out.
Jacob:There You're single, let's go. I'm very, I'm very single, ready to mingle. Um and yeah.
Robin:Winter, not the ones ready for the next, not the ones the next.
Jacob:Refreshing views, yeah absolutely or just just fun, for now I have some people that are friends with benefits nothing like a sizzle date.
Robin:You know what I'm saying like let's, let's, let's have some fun.
Jacob:Exactly I, um no, that's that's how I identify. Yeah. So yeah, the podcast was.
Jacob:I just felt like I was working through a lot it started with TikTok poetry, which I poetry on my TikToks and Instagram me doing poetry um making digs at my ex. Right because I, because I feel like here's the thing is that sometimes when you have an abusive partner, people feel like there's two sides to the story. Okay, people feel like you know, it's like I. I don't feel like how do I put it, because we were in mutual circles like church, yeah, mutual friends, circles, groups, and like it seemed like the narrative spun to him a lot and how I knew that was with how dismissive people were, how um like like one time I was at church and um we're like smirking and laughing like we get it.
Robin:This is 22.
Alexis:I'm sitting here saying well, there are two sides to it, there's the abused and the abuser.
Robin:Hello, I'm sitting here saying there's 22 sides to it because, once you start adding all the places you're all word like in my experience of relationships.
Jacob:You may know people in different contexts so they're gonna come out with, like different versions of you guys you know so but go ahead no, yeah, thank y'all for saying that too, because it's honestly still hard to talk about it, because I always have that idea of like what if I'm not believed? And like what if there's what if people doubt my story and I'm just like all all I can do is tell the truth.
Robin:Hey, so if you want to hear the tea, it is on his podcast. Which? What is it named?
Jacob:Power of the Narrative Power of the Narrative. It's on Spotify, apple Music, some people like that.
Robin:You know they like that juicy tea.
Robin:But you know I don't want to undersell it though, because there is that but there's also this other thread that you're taking on, which may or may not be a part of your uh non-profit I'm not quite sure but you are highlighting people in their trauma that, specifically, have either gotten over some very serious stuff, different types of abuse, and the way you take on the interview is very caring.
Robin:And the way you take on the interview in my, in my uh impression was that it's very listener friendly. Like I don't try to listen to trauma to gain more trauma, like I'm very hesitant, I don't want to be rewounded, but you talk about some some heavy topics with people, and what I like about it is is they share what got them through. So if that's the first time somebody has ever heard of someone who's gotten through like domestic violence, they're going to hear some takeaway things that might help them in the moment of their own violence, which is really a beautiful thing, thank you. And then you have some um interviews so far and who knows how much you've banked but that are showing intense cases that are still open. So you're like, in my impression of it, giving voices and platform, giving voice and a platform to people who might be um ignored after a certain point. Yeah, was that the intention of the interview and the non-profit? How do you want your listener to listen that?
Jacob:yeah, I think for the podcast. You know, overall it is, my work centers around people who you know don't have space in society, like, you know, the people who get the most. The person that gets the most space is a cisgender, cisgender white male. Uh, that has money. Because we have to make that distinction, because you know white men think they're the shit. No, I'm kidding.
Robin:Um, um a lot of them do they do yeah, um, but those are people that get the space and they get the.
Jacob:Those are people that get the permission to feel pain, um and um. Pretty much my my podcast when I started it was I didn't get the space to talk about my experiences and my truth and you know, when I did, it was people who tried to give advice, tried to make me see both sides, et cetera, et cetera. So when I I you know one, one interview that still sticks to me to this day is Courtney Navarro's interview Like it. Cause Courtney Navarro's interview like it? Because Courtney Navarro also does, uh, poetry on TikTok. Her interview was so surgical that when I was doing it I had to like decompress, because there's always like a decompression, there's always like aftercare done. And then when I listened back to it I was like holy shit, like covered a lot she did and she did it like.
Jacob:I think her stillness is what, um, what gets me, because she can recount a lot of things and like stillness.
Jacob:And you know, my approach as a host in my podcast is I'm not here to save them, I I'm here to witness them, and you know how that looks is, you know, I'm I'm asking questions to help them flesh out their own story, their narrative, and I take it from the trauma to the growth. We are now where you want to go and I try to make very sure not to re-traumatize the guests, you know, not to exploit them. Like when I sign media release forms for them, I'm usually saying hey, like you know, reach out to me if you change your mind about the episode or if something comes up, I can cut parts of the episode. And then I evolved that work from, you know, courtney and Emma it's Courtney, emma Brandon and then, as I evolved the work, I started to. So I'm a. I started to, so I'm a true crime buff. I'm a true crime buff there's a little thread in there because I was like how is he doing this?
Robin:is he a social worker? Is he?
Alexis:you know, you're obviously not exploiting them like it's a caring tone.
Robin:You're not asking them to go into any like um rough detail.
Alexis:You know it's, it's a good vibe and it's also like, but but I personally, if you're just hitting your podcast from one of those episodes, people may not know your intention of having them on there that's right because that part's not like in an intro or they may not know, and so I just honestly didn't, but I could feel the caring in there yeah, you know, my experience and this sort of goes with yours, yeah, and and it's certainly with a different population than what you're talking about is that the abused person rarely gets the ability to actually have their story heard. The abuser is usually loud and proud and making things up right and left and just throwing everything out there and everyone's like, oh you, poor thing, you had someone that didn't let you do it up again. Or you know, yes, and and I you know that's basically psychologically crushing. So it's like just the continuation of abuse, and sometimes it takes someone who has been abused, which I guess would be traumatized. I'm old enough that the term trauma is different meaning to me, but you know, I do understand it.
Alexis:Someone has been traumatized. It just extends it and it frequently takes them forever to be able to talk about it and part of it is they don't think anyone will believe them. They don't think that anyone will care if they do believe them, which is almost worse, and so you know. So they're sort of like put in a box and usually their basic tendency is to be introverted anyway. So it's not a totally uncomfortable thing to not be able to get your narrative out, if you will, or get your side of it out. But you know, frequently I've known a bunch of people and they're like well, what about me? What about you know? What about what happened from my end? And usually nobody says anything or gives them any chance to explain it. Yeah, and so I think that's really good.
Jacob:Man, I'm glad you said that, because I was robin a bit of this earlier when I walked in.
Jacob:but there's a, there's a male support group that it's a whole organization, big organization that she's going to leave anonymous right now. But me and my ex and I were in this group and we um, we're in different support groups outside of that in the organization and I actually got a phone call from one of the high up leaders in the group today who said that a lot of group members saw my social media posts about my ex, about my episodes, and they were very uncomfortable. I don't know, I don't know why, but they were very uncomfortable.
Robin:You don't know why they didn't call you.
Jacob:And no, no, I didn't they, I and I'll just close to the audience. I had a suicide episode six months ago. I told these guys because this is a male support group and this is what we deal with, so they use that as justification to go to the leader and say, well, you know, well, keep in mind, he had a suicide episode six months ago, you know he's. They said I was breaking confidentiality policy, which is like what goes on in the group stays in the group. But none of the stuff I was talking about was actually about anybody in the group except me and my ex Right and Can I make a comment about your suicide?
Jacob:episode.
Alexis:Just for everybody. Yeah, go ahead. A very alive person sitting here.
Jacob:So obviously it was successfully dealt with right, right, exactly right, I um right you know, the funny thing you say about that too is like when people hear you're suicidal, like it's, they're like yeah, don't want to touch it, but sure there's a lot of stigma.
Alexis:I mean it takes vulnerability to even share that I mean, if we could get true surveys, I think if you did the lgbtq community, you would find that the rate of people who have, at one time or another, felt like they were suicidal is amazingly high yeah, yeah and yet we're still around and attempts.
Robin:You know, some of these places that have support groups have avoided, uh, having chat spaces that even talk about attempts, you know, and so that's that's a big deal and so, but, but to your point that you were making, um, you know, and we can come back to this, but you know, I, you know if, if you're listening, like, just just stay along with it, right, but like the point that you're talking about somebody calling you to address the uncomfortableness, yeah, I hope I scared your listeners off no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Robin:So where are you going with it, though it has you feel some sort of way well, I think that's like the, because this isn't.
Jacob:This isn't so much me venting, this is more so about an example of like that, too muchness.
Robin:Like that because she was she saying, like people have to, people who are abused or harmed also have to assess the situation that you were pointing to is like what is too much Can? The people handle it. What are the repercussions of voicing what happened?
Jacob:I think it was too much for me to hold all that in. My ex broke with me over the phone. I asked him to if he could please talk to me in person about everything he ghosted me. Um, you know he oh, I forgot my point about the church.
Jacob:Um you know, I stopped going to this church unity of Houston, cause it's um, so I, I, he did this thing I call narrative domination, which is basically like, by the time I was talking to people at the church, he was like he talked to everybody we used to know and just explaining his side of things, I'll say, and I remember talking to this one girl and I was like, oh, I'm Jacob, by the way. And she's like, yeah, I know everything about you. I just talked to your ex last week and we had a two hour conversation about everything and I was like I was cringing, so hard and you had just met this person and they had a two hour conversation about you.
Jacob:Yes, I was like From someone else's view.
Robin:Yeah See, people want that tea.
Alexis:They'll eat it up. That's not great. That's not great, and the key is they had a two-hour conversation about you, not with you uh-huh.
Jacob:So I got uncomfortable. And then my of course you got uncomfortable, I got uncomfortable. Yeah, go back also. My ex was there at the church every single time just staring me down yeah I was like so it's. It's one of those things where I feel like the key theme here, not just through the breakup, but, like you know, because I'm healed, I'm healed, things will come up and that's okay, it's an onion, it's, there's layers. Yes, exactly there's layers. I'll probably be unpacking this for years to come well, it's like it, I don't know.
Robin:I mean, it's not just grief, it's like maybe it's grief, I don't know, like yeah, my grief. No, it's not just grief, it's like maybe it's grief, I don't know.
Jacob:It's not grief, no, it's.
Robin:Alexis is shaking her head, no.
Jacob:Oh yeah, you go ahead.
Alexis:Yeah, no, I'm saying you're shaking my head, no. It's not grief, no it's not grief, it's embarrassment and ego and you know, usually what I've seen is you know people are really coming from the fact that they can't believe they let that happen to them and didn't speak out or didn't do something different. And, and you know, it's embarrassing, whether you want to admit it or not, because it beats up your ego.
Robin:Breakups are hard. You know I went in. I was in a six year relationship. Yeah, I was in a six year relationship and, like, I spent maybe two years afterwards hearing other people's thoughts, comments needs to decompress about my breakup.
Robin:Now, mind you, these people were not in my relationship, they were maybe not even around my relationship, but they had an idea of who me and my partner were in the world and it had a feeling that it left in them in a good way. So when we broke up it was like I had to hold their hand about it, you know. And then that, like the original comments, I kind of understand. But when it gets on to be about two years and we're in a big city but it is it operates like a small town, and so there were just you know people here yeah, queer people, yeah, you know and we.
Robin:We were in circles where you know, like a few circles where we were known, and then, when you start to become your own self again to some degree you're making new friends, you're meeting new people you think, oh, these people haven't heard of me, or oh, it's a fresh start, or oh, it's been two years.
Robin:Like we're both fine, Both moved on. Well, I was at my job one day and a lady came and she was new and I introduced myself to her and she said exactly what that person said to you was oh, I know who you are, I know your ex, and I was like we are at work. You know, first of all in my mind. Second of all, who says that and I have to recover from this. In my mind, you know, and she says well, I know exactly what happened and I don't want to talk to you Like we are well into our thirties.
Robin:Okay, people do not age out of drama, okay, and so I luckily just exited out of that conversation, went on about my day, did my business like I needed to, like a professional, and then afterwards I got off of the shift and I called her and I said look, we are two and a half years out from this. This is affecting my work and I need to talk about it. And she said, wow, so I want to. I want you to know that I know the person she's talking about. We're not friends and I used to share about my breakup for my own healing, but where people take it from there, it sounds like she was just needing to pick sides and I've never, asked anyone to do that and I said, okay, and she goes.
Robin:And I want you to know I'm not actively sharing about you ever, not because of any hard feelings, but because you know I have my whole day going on, my whole life like whatever. And I said, okay, well, it made me feel better to just name it and say, like this is enough. And uh, you know it was. It wasn't enough in like stopping some of the drama and the processing between us, but like outward people, like to some degree it was, and those are just hard moments and what I've learned is it's not perfect, but if you can have some set up lines on how to get through like, I will take this up with this person. Thank you, like not you, you know.
Robin:And I went back to the coworker Because we have to work together, you know, and I said, look, I think we're under a different interpretation and you know a different story of what actually happened. Her and I are fine and she says, oh, I know I was PMSing, I took it out on you and honestly I didn't want this job and my cousin was telling me I should be more like her and all she does is talk about her and I'm just honestly fed up. But honestly I shouldn't have taken that out on you and I'm like, okay, just yet again, a whole nother world. I never thought I would hear you know. And I said I said, here's the thing, we're working together, let's have a fresh start. And her and I ended up being friends like just because we left it alone. But like I had no idea where she was coming from, I didn't even know her wow, isn't that crazy how much she's projecting on you oh, people project a lot, right, but you know, it's simple humans humans humans
Alexis:yeah, humans, humans and you know, you have no idea what they're thinking, what they're going to do and where it takes them in their minds.
Jacob:Seriously, people need stories. And then hero villain is always a good moral categorization.
Alexis:I sort of like being the villain.
Jacob:I'd be a sexy villain.
Alexis:You gotta have like a few villains.
Robin:That way I know where I stand. I love it I like those memes that say I'm in my villain era.
Jacob:I am in my villain era.
Alexis:There are certain projects that we've done together where people come over and they're complaining to me and I'm like wait, you do understand, I'm not the nice one, that's the nice one over there with the red hair.
Jacob:Yeah, I'm the nice one, so she doesn't have to be.
Alexis:You should name a good cop back. Yeah, well, I mean a nice person anymore.
Robin:She's not a nice person.
Alexis:Totally directed, 100% getting it done.
Robin:Which means everyone comes to me. Yeah, at least you're honest. Yeah. At least we know our roles, yeah.
Jacob:Because I would just I'd be like, okay, I'm just going to take orders, this would be about business.
Robin:I'm going to go for emotional support, support to robin. Well, what? Are some of the care things that you do, like that's actually something that we're bumping up against. So some people do choose their characters to sort of step into and sort of highlight their next chapter of their narrative. Uh, I know you're a poet and I know that you want to work with kids but you're working with all ages. Like, what are some things that you do for care around all these conversations of trauma?
Jacob:that's a good question. So you're basically asking me like, what archetype do I step into when I'm doing this work?
Robin:maybe or like. Is that a part of it?
Jacob:yeah, it is because I feel like there's a different personality I take on when I do this work. I'm the mirror holding space. I'm reflecting back a lot of positive things, not toxic positivity, but like in a way that person knows and owns their power. Um, you know, especially I think about because I'm still new to working with, uh, families that have missing, missing loved ones. I think the person I step into with that is very much about. The key question is how can I help this family tell a compelling narrative Like yeah.
Jacob:And it's not so much for show, it's more so about like, what is the strengths in their story? How can we amplify that? How can I hold space for this family? Because nobody's up to this point. Listen to them, because you know medias have new cycles to chase. You know police officers, we'll try for a bit and give up. And um, actually, working with the texas center for missing I've I found that you know, police departments won't say that they don't have any leads, or they they. They won't say they give up, they'll just wait till the family gives up.
Robin:Um, so you actually worked with them as an employee or you had something going on like what's the label there?
Jacob:we're in partnership with each other, so like we have like a formal memorandum of understanding. So we're in partnership together.
Jacob:Okay, and they will refer people that want to have their cases featured that makes sense, yeah but I, there's this one case, uh, on my podcast, the newest one, jared chavis um, his case was fumbled so much and it's been seven years and I just grieve for that family, like when I, when I'm done with these podcasts, with them, I like have so much anger, like I have to let that go and not let it go, let it out, grieve it. So the person I usually step into is somebody that um, is, you know, caring, can hold space for that. I think that's the big thing is that I was labeled as too much throughout my life and now I can hold space for the stories that are deemed too much. You know, that is that is a strength of a lot of my work, is that?
Jacob:yeah I can hold space for stories that people wouldn't, you know, want to hear, have the capacity to hear, because I I pride myself on being very mostly intelligent, so I know my emotions, I know myself, I know where they end, I begin, um, you know so I that's usually the person I step into um, and so I'm glad you hear like a caring aspect of it too, because that's what I try to do?
Jacob:I don't really. I don't really talk too much in the podcast. Like I'll talk to like, and that's probably. It's definitely evolved over time Like I'll ask a question, use my dialogue to steer conversation back to them more, but I'm not talking that much. Probably the most I've talked in episodes with my friend Brandon Sure, you're actually a friend talking that much um, probably the most I've talked in episodes with my friend brandon because sure, you're actually a friend talking yeah, we've been friends for years and we were just going back and forth and then, um, but I, I like, I like the, I like the role of being the mirror.
Jacob:That's probably the big thing. Like I can reflect back a lot of what you told me, you know, like, this is how you present the story, this is what I'm seeing. What do you think? Um, how? My favorite question is, like what would you say to young so-and-so?
Jacob:like young for Courtney was like what would you say to young Courtney? And she's like I love you, I love you so much, thank you for everything. And I was like after that podcast, I had to go cry. I was like after that podcast, I had to go cry.
Speaker 2:I was like, yeah, what am I going to say to young?
Jacob:Jacob.
Alexis:I was about to say.
Robin:The obvious question is yeah yeah, that aftercare is is something that maybe people don't know what to do or how to do if they're not emotionally intelligent, but they hit on a lot of emotions Like those. Things are heavy topics, so I'm I'm glad that, uh, we're that we're talking a little bit about that. And, alexis, you look like you want to say something. Of course I do. Okay, go for it, go for it, go for it, go for it.
Alexis:No, I was just going to clarify so the things you're doing. You're working with the family more than the police. You're working peripherally with the police or a little bit with them, because with TFA Transgender Foundation of America one of the things that we did for a lot of years was work with the police to get them actually interested in doing anything about transgender incidents.
Jacob:But that was directly with the police to actually get them to do something. If you will, my specialty is narrative justice, so like you know I'm working with the families to like, craft a narrative and help, help them control the narrative, because I don't. I'm not, I'm anti-exploitation. So meaning that I'm like, hey, how, how's this video? How do you want it to sound? But I mean, if you, if you ever watched Scandal cause I'm making Scandal right now, olivia Pope, that's how I feel, like I am it's narrative domination, go ahead.
Alexis:Yeah, no, I was just going to say do you do anything with the DA's office?
Jacob:I haven't yet. I've reached out to them to do juvenile work, but I haven't gotten in partnership with any of the police here yet.
Alexis:You should schedule a meeting with Sean Teer. John Teer, Sean Teer the DA Okay. Sean's very open for those sorts of things.
Jacob:Okay, thank you for saying that, because I would not have expected that.
Alexis:I know. That's why I said it.
Jacob:I actually appreciate that, because actually Our previous DA.
Alexis:I wouldn't have suggested it and Just saying, without names being mentioned, they can do their own Google search.
Robin:Wikipedia exists. They can do their own search.
Alexis:They can do their own search. I don't want to can do their own search. They can do their own search. I don't want to make it easy for them.
Jacob:Yeah, Sean. Okay, I'm going to remember that I reached back out to his office.
Alexis:And you can tell him that I suggested you talk to him if you'd like. Sean will know who I am.
Jacob:Okay, that is Dang. I had something to say Then I forgot it have a thought, that's all right.
Alexis:Let's see if I did that on purpose. Let's see if it comes back up. If it doesn't come back up, it probably wasn't that important.
Jacob:It'll come back up at like midnight when I'm not even here anymore.
Alexis:Oh yeah, mine are 2 am yeah, writing notes, because otherwise I can't go back to sleep, right?
Robin:was it along the lines of which groups you work with or haven't gotten into yet? Actually I want to talk about my villain costume now you're stealing my thunder.
Alexis:Yeah, you know what I was going to say is that I guess the question I have, um, do you do follow-ups on some of these things, or is it a one time and done type thing?
Jacob:um, I try to stay in contact with everybody because, I. I don't want to feel like they got ghosted, um but um, because every, every guest has told me that I'm very open to doing another episode, so I've not done a follow-up episode of anybody just yet yeah, but I do think it's still new right right.
Jacob:um, there's someone on there, wayne Chella. I just did his interview. Amazing director. He directed this film that I love called Insignificant. Basically, he discloses a history of, like priest, sexual abuse and I didn't know that because it's not Googleable. It's not any of his platforms.
Alexis:That's not fair. That was my next question. Do you have anyone accidentally disclose things, or disclose things that you didn't know about?
Robin:him. Maybe it just felt like, he felt like safe enough to say it yeah, I think that's it. It doesn't freak me out, I you know I, you know, full disclosure.
Jacob:I was abused as a child too, like you know I. It doesn't make me uncomfortable, right, yeah, comfortable, right, um, yeah it, uh. But yes, probably every guest has probably disclosed something. I was like I didn't know that when I googled you um so google doesn't wait a minute.
Robin:Google doesn't know everything. Wait a minute. We figured that out too.
Alexis:Fortunately google doesn't know all.
Robin:Yeah, yeah well, why, were you wondering, if he follows up with people in?
Alexis:general. No, because these seem like things that almost need to be followed up on. Yeah, and almost it's almost like a Dateline series.
Jacob:Yeah, yeah.
Alexis:You know a true crime series or something like that, but Dateline would be more like it where it. I mean, what I'm picturing in my mind is a follow-up, where you go do a five minute interview with several different people and sort of do updates for people, because I would think people could get very interested in the case, etc. And a little bump, update, update might do something yeah, I, that's funny.
Jacob:You say that because, like, when I post like the missing cases on like tiktok, I'll hashtag a lot of different things.
Jacob:And they'll get good views. Actually, this is new, but Christian Menefee and somebody else, amanda Walker, are running for Sylvester Turner's chair, so I actually emailed Christian Menefee's office yesterday to ask if he would be open to talking with the family. To ask if he would be open to talking with the family, because the best thing that people could do is give media exposure to those families, which I haven't gotten a reply back yet. We'll see what happens. But since I also wear a lot of hats, one of the other hats is being precinct chair for my district.
Robin:It's good to accessorize. I mean.
Jacob:I want to get more politically involved because of what's going on.
Robin:So you are a precinct chair.
Jacob:I am a precinct chair.
Robin:What does that involve for you?
Alexis:Which district District You're supposed to know this? No hold on.
Jacob:The um was my warm up Congressional District 18, Precinct 0606. Okay.
Alexis:I'm supporting Amanda. I'll just open it up there.
Jacob:That's fine.
Alexis:Some people are surprised because they think I'd be supporting Christian because we're friends.
Jacob:I mean, they're both Democrats. Yes, they are. I mean, whoever wins, so are the other 20, or however many I figure out, yeah, like how many people are running?
Alexis:now. It's changing hourly.
Jacob:Yeah, I'm hoping the best person and you can't say anything because you're precinct chair.
Alexis:You have to be somewhat neutral except yeah voting yeah, that's why I offered both candidates the opportunity.
Jacob:Well, okay, first, my stuff is outside of precinct. But yes, you're right, precinct chair. So what that involves usually canvassing like I go to people's houses that that voted um, talk to them, but I actually want, I want to. So I was telling the other leadership this for the party I want to run narrative justice town halls. So what that looks like is centering the people back on a lot of these issues like um. You'd be surprised in our, in our precinct, sometimes the issues isn't, of course it is rent and evictions, but also some things are like this street hasn't been fixed in years and we need somebody that's gonna do that and yeah, you know it's.
Jacob:it's centering the people back in these issues and, you know, building rapport in the community, because I think a lot of communities have the narrative that we see this politician every two to four years asking for our votes. We don't see any real change.
Alexis:Right, right, asking for our votes, and money, and money.
Jacob:And money.
Robin:Yeah.
Alexis:Some people, their vote's more important than money. Other people, the money's more important than money. Other people, the money's more important than votes. I'm convinced.
Jacob:But they want both.
Robin:Really important. I live in the near north side and in that area if you know of 45 in the Heights, it's on the other side of 45 from the Heights. Near north side was the first developed place in Houston that I know of because I think it's the highest elevation and there is a large Spanish speaking population there and sometimes the crime rate is high around the schools because they all they have like a lot of houseless people that are getting services and we're getting services there, and sometimes it's mental illness, sometimes it's opportunity. But the kids were getting jumped and trying to get to school and one of the kids unfortunately lost their life. I think his name was Josue.
Robin:And then they started a walk, our students to school, sort of initiative. So they got to school, uh sort of initiative. So they got, they got to school safely and when chief Acevedo uh took his seat, there was a city town hall to talk about what this new uh police chief brings and whatnot. Well, the safe walk initiatives and the principal uh were there and I mean I have goosebumps. It was like about 70 people shoulder to shoulder, ass to ass in the building and a lot of news crews and they were just saying like if we do not see a solution with this, we just can't go any further. We have to see this. We need the cops help Because anytime you called in crime it would get bounced from.
Robin:HPD to Metro. And then the principal of the school said, like I'm doing the best I can, I make sure everyone leaves the school and I'm staying until very late hours, but I also don't even know who to call, right, and this was a couple of years ago now. But one of the little kids asked Acevedo, can you please open up a police station next to the school? Like then maybe me and my brother will be safe. And he said I can't do that because that's gonna be a lot of money and it's not gonna lead to where you want it to go. But what I can do is put more people in the area in a friendly way and come and look at all the hotspots with the actual citizens on. Like what, uh, what demographics is he actually taking on when he was taking on the city?
Robin:And I have to say that, although there's a lot of trauma between citizens and cops, to say the least, doing some ride-alongs with people in that neighborhood to point out the difference between a crime spot or just place that houseless people are living or just, you know, this is where the lines stop and start between hpd and metro gave a lot of clarity and it started creating those paths. It started creating literal sidewalks, because they didn't have a lot for the kids to walk on to even get to school. So it started putting in infrastructure, which got the city council member involved in it, and, you know, they started creating bridges that just were not there to be able to be created before, because they kept getting no, no answer, no answer, no answer. So if we do have some of those leaders that are willing to make those bridges, they don't even last all the time, though, because you change chiefs, you change activists, you change students, mayors. It has to be recreated, unfortunately, but it's worth it. However, the narrative justice can ripple.
Robin:that was at a one town hall meeting right but it was the actions that came out of it too.
Jacob:And um wow. First of all, that's an incredible story.
Robin:It's wonderful.
Jacob:And I think that is the power, that's collective power. And. I think it's like like, for instance, the no Kings protest, which was fabulous demonstration I, when I, I when I see that I think about how emotionally people are affected politically by a lot of issues and I think about, to say the least. To say the least, I think about what if we could concentrate that power? Like? What if that could be like a reoccurring thing?
Jacob:where um, and I think that's what I try to teach, that's what I want to teach people is how do you get heard when powers that be ignore you? Where do you go?
Alexis:because also sometimes it's a resource thing some people don't know what pressure points to hit on the system to make people listen and you know, one of the things and I've spent a lot of time doing a lot of education on this is that a lot of times, the people that they decide they're going to discuss things with and get upset with can't help them. Exactly.
Alexis:I mean you've got to. I mean we've backed so far off of teaching civics in high school that people don't know what various parts of the government do. And you know, hollering at the county for something that only the state can do doesn't make any sense when you really get down to it. What you need to do is go talk to them, make them allies and then go to the state where they can do it.
Robin:But that takes a whole lot of education and um coordination, which can be done, and we've done a bunch of that yeah, and you never know who's in the room and you never know where it goes after the room, because a lot of people are not radioing back Like. I know those stories because I knew the activists that were on the ride along. I know that story because I showed up for the town hall. I know that story because I really wanted to know who the hell Acevedo was and what chapter were we stepping in with our next city official Right. And when we went to, uh, what was it?
Robin:f bar yeah and he did an lgbt uh, maybe political caucus, uh, meet and greet. It was funny because he got on the mic and he says look, I'm from. I think where was he coming from, like florida austin somewhere like open and accepting right, and so he was, like I know, the LGBT.
Jacob:When they mess up the letters on my phone.
Alexis:When they start slowing down. He's doing pretty good.
Robin:He's doing pretty good. He's doing better than most. And then he like stumbled on one and he goes. He's like what, what letter am I missing? That is just a great question. It's a great question, but it's a tough crowd.
Alexis:And then someone said, like I for intersects, right Well except the intersects haven't decided whether they want to be in there or not.
Robin:Sure, sure, sure. Again, tough crowd mixed messages, right, even in the crowd. Okay, but we have high standards for this cop, right. And he asked, like which was can we stop adding letters? You know, which makes makes complete sense when you're trying to memorize acronyms, ok, but it doesn't make complete sense when you're somebody who's responsible for the people that those letters represent. That only came out to be a letter in the acronym because they felt safe, and so I said those letters are people. And he said, now that I can get behind, and I was like, okay, you know, it was powerful.
Alexis:The funniest thing was that there were some demonstrators anti-police period.
Robin:We don't need any police, and you know I mean, we need police.
Alexis:I mean we need the right kind of police. But we need police, there's no question.
Robin:But we also need police agitation, Like there's room for all of it.
Alexis:And the funniest thing was they showed up and then, halfway through, they pulled their mask up. Now they've been sitting there talking to everyone, but now they don't want anyone to know who they are.
Robin:This is great. It was a rainy day and everyone in the club knew who each other were, except for these young kids that were getting increasingly uncomfortable. Right. Because they were about to do a flash protest. Yeah, and so all the elders, because they were like, let's say, 20, and everybody was at least 10, 15 years older. We all know each other. They go up and they start to yell something like shut up, pig, or I don't know.
Alexis:No police, get rid of the police, et cetera, et cetera. They're right in front of the stage and Acevedo's standing there and he's like you know. If you want to turn around and ask any questions, I'll answer them.
Robin:Yeah, they had their backs to him. He's like I'm right here, yeah, and it made it worse because they were nervous which we're laughing, because they're actually community members of some sort that care. They're clearly LGBT radicals. They were in the most accepting group. They could protest in against this cop that was not bringing nothing but kindness and probably going to offer them the mic in a minute. He did. He said said you want to say something?
Alexis:but then they got spooked because they were like scared so then they ran out, but they threw these flyers on through flyers like anti-cop flyers, and ray hill said you know, if you'd given us the flyers, we would have handed them out.
Robin:For you, yeah, we, you know you don't, you don't understand. We're actually all friends here, I mean. Rachel's known for agitating the cops and holding them accountable right. And then the owner was like who's going to pick up the litter?
Jacob:Oh my gosh.
Robin:And we carried on with the meet and greet.
Alexis:But the police officer that was with Acevedo as, I guess, his security I don't know who was standing by the door, you know sort of watched him leave. And when I walked up and I'm like, did they get out okay? And she said, well, they showed up in the car that's parked right there. They went running down the street, she says. I think they were so spooked and scared that they didn't even stop for their car.
Robin:I mean, you're in a room full of people who have Coordinated actions and they want to make sure You're okay during your action. Like that was the vibe.
Alexis:And the fact is that not everyone agreed with us. Well, welcome to the world.
Robin:Even our own community. We don't have the same agreements. How we're going to get to the same futures, right?
Alexis:But the key is nobody was going to shut them up. Right, I mean, there was a time when they kept stuttering through what they were trying to say and I sort of got close to them and made it uncomfortable for them, so they moved on out Because it's like you know, we only have a certain amount of time, right. Right.
Alexis:But you know, it's stuff like that that I find interesting with our community, because you know there was nobody there that was negative, right. And it would have been better for them if they just hung around.
Robin:But they didn't. They would have learned a lot and they would have been in good company. And you look like you would say something Go for it.
Jacob:No, I'm just thinking on everything Because it's touching on something I've been thinking about lately, where I feel like there's energy behind the movement.
Robin:Yeah, yeah, lots of movements, yeah.
Jacob:Which I know. I have my own grievances about the police. I'm mostly frustrated with the system. Sure, and that could change.
Robin:And we all are, you know, to our different levels, for sure.
Alexis:My view is that there are good police, there are bad police and there's scared police.
Jacob:There's scared police.
Alexis:And the scared police are the ones that worry me even more than the bad police, because I know how to deal with people who are just basically bad and out to do bad things. The scared police, it's legitimate, I mean, I get it. They're doing things that can be scary at all. Get out and we're asking them to put their life on the line. Well, sorry, that's the job.
Robin:Yeah.
Alexis:And we do everything we can to give you protective equipment and all like that, but that still doesn't mean you're going to be safe and go home at night.
Robin:Right all like that, but that still doesn't mean you're going to be safe and go home at night, right? I mean, my view is I don't want cops, but I don't have a peace plan that could be implemented in the world that we currently live in, so, like if we have been given an example just from 2020 to 2025, we are not all on the same peace plan, including the cops, right? And so I mean to the point where, honestly, I won't go to protests because it's not safe, and I did appreciate that, the no kings uh, what do you say? Was that a protest or was that a protest okay?
Robin:protest yeah you know their main vibe the whole time was like trying to keep it from escalating and to keep it safe, like nationally I was.
Robin:I was really glad to see that. I think for the most part that that happened, um, but I mean I didn't think that that was going to happen. Not one second Did I think that that was going to happen. Because it feels like everyone is where the media, the rhetoric and our nervous systems would have us be like on edge, which is why I try so hard in my efforts to have people have decompressing support for their nervous system, to have education, to have connection, because those things matter. But to Alexis's point, what also matters if you want to make a difference is talking to the people who can actually help you, and that's hard to know. It is hard to know.
Alexis:Yeah, and getting in to talk to them is hard too, I mean.
Robin:And the seasons in which they'll talk to you. Like you said, last DA is not the same as this DA. Well, guess what that takes? A lot of voting, you know, and a lot of work and it takes a lot of pre-work.
Alexis:A lot of people are like well, this person got elected, they're in there now, so you know they should talk to me. Well, they should talk to you if you've worked with them for four or five years.
Robin:Yeah, you do a lot of courting, like you have to court them over time and I know that you've done a lot of talk with a lot of consulting with like CDC over the years of like what to fear, what not to fear, for the actual cops.
Jacob:Because they're not educated on all things. No, you know.
Alexis:How could?
Robin:they be yeah.
Alexis:And you know it's sort of scary, if you will, because they have guns and my view is that they pull them out way too often and they miss way too often. And you know, and that's not saying that, yeah, I want more people shot. It's saying, if they are going to shoot, I don't want them to hit somebody who wasn't supposed to get hit Right, which really sucks.
Robin:Yeah, and in Houston they do citizen ride-alongs. I had a roommate side conversation where I came home and her new thing that she was doing for herself was she wanted to get to know the cops. And I was like okay, and she said so I signed up for this Houston program where you can do different parts of citizen follow along so they allow you to do a little picking of what you want to do and then some of it. You have to do things before you get to other things. For instance, you have to have a little bit of training before you're actually riding along in a cop car and you have to do a little bit of training before you work with uh, the airport and bomb dogs. And I don't I'm not the type of person that wants to hang around cops. I don't have any hard feelings about it, but that's just not my thing.
Robin:And um, to like put yourself in those programs just because you wanted to learn more, I think was courageous. But she really had a lot of insight by being in the moment and doing those programs and she really got a lot of insight about like, uh, airport security and dogs and things and they were training the new dogs and she was like going from wearing like the fake explosives to the real explosives. I mean, they have to train the dogs they have, they use citizens to do this and I was just floored hearing her experience when she came home. You know, and one of the examples that she said on the ride along which she worked herself up to was the cop said whatever you do in Houston after like 9 pm, try not to drive in the right hand lane on the highway okay which honestly would be my go-to lane because I feel like it's the slowest lane.
Robin:But the reason why they said because after nine there's a lot of intoxicated people that go up the exit ramps and causes accidents and I'm like, oh my god, I thought the accidents were just in the fast lane so so you learn different tips. You learn things that you wouldn't think you would learn. Not that I'm advocating to do that program but I'm just saying like there's a whole world there that people don't know about.
Alexis:And you know, my biggest thing is I mean most of the police that patrol this area I have met and you know if they're sitting there doing a, you know watching the stop sign or something, if I'm outside I'll go over and sort of wave and I'm like just want to say hi, I'll get out of your way in a minute. I live right down there, okay, because if they've seen my face, they know who I am. Chances are they'll say, oh, okay, yeah, that's a neighbor. Very nice protection if you will. Most of them are friendly.
Alexis:If they aren't, then whoever they work for will get some complaints, whether it be constable or whatever.
Robin:Right, yeah, well, where do you see the chapter evolving with the podcast and the nonprofit? Ideally if it was coming together the podcast and the nonprofit. Ideally if it was coming together, because I know you've gone and spoke to school boards about, uh, the mental wellness that is needed, which we all know across the board, is like really uh harsh. It's like it's they're not getting helped or non-existent yeah.
Robin:Non-existent. That's what I was looking for. Thank you, and um, I mean, it's it, it. It needs a lot of support. Do you feel like they're going to be open to your programs? Are you like getting some people that are supportive with the government contracts or anything?
Jacob:yeah, these are very great questions. Um, first of all, no, um, but what's funny is that I actually uh was um pitching programs to them because they approved me as uh, first of all, five districts approved me to be vendors um in their district, like humble cyphair, a leaf aldine and texas city I mean, that's a good amount yeah, and all of them well, especially humble, because that when I gave that school board speech it was at Humble ISD gave me the runaround for months.
Jacob:They weren't open to the idea of like a trauma-informed educational program. And the director of student success actually has said, like well, we already have programs like that. We have mental health therapists, we have different things like that. We have a mental therapist, we have different things. And I'm like, but I'm pretty sure, if I pry like students and parents, like I'm pretty sure that doesn't meet all their needs. And actually she had told me verbatim, so I have it on a recorded phone call. But she was like you know, you're giving me a problem that hasn't even like become a problem yet. And I was like what kind of leader says, what kind of leader waits for a problem to happen? Ooh, good question, you know and Good question, you know.
Jacob:So actually that's been a whole saga because she was like well, let me see your data from your pilots, and I sent it to her. She's like this isn't what we want. And you know, the background of that is that I've I've purported them to Texas Educational Agency for a lot of different things and so the phone call goes to them. But all that being said, what's funny is what I've learned is that districts are not open to actually the kind of work that we do, and districts are very risk averse. They're not open to innovation until people forces them to do it. And so my initially, when I made my academic arm through my nonprofit Sinclair Scholars, which I just like the name Sinclair- it's like on a fancy vibe Get that job vibe.
Robin:Exactly that boss vibe.
Jacob:When I made it you know like I have private students and like the school districts weren't interested in doing it and when I thought about the trauma informed aspect, I was like I think I'm pitching this to the wrong people. Why school districts and not juvenile centers? Why not criminal justice centers? Why not? I had a meeting with Family Protective Services. I was like this kind of program goes to kids that need it the most? Okay. But that's where I see the vision.
Alexis:How did that meeting go?
Jacob:Were they more open? They were very, oh my, my god, they were desperate open really nice, no, they were good so what they told me was to apply for um. You have to apply for government contracts, which I we applied for a contract that helps um pretty. It's pretty much helps parents do a lot of emotional regulation while gaining their kids back and keeping them in custody yeah so they actually asked me to apply for contracts. The juvenile I had emailed multiple people in the juvenile probation department. I haven't heard anything back.
Alexis:I really want to hear something back because you know, yeah, I mean getting state contracts or getting anything from the state. The best thing to do is go, make sure you've got your vendor numbers and apply for the right to do business with the state. A lot of people wait until after they get something and it'll go away while you're trying to get it.
Jacob:Yeah, oh, my God, you know all that, like the whole game of contracts and RFPs which is oh yes.
Robin:Well, she's spent a good amount of her life helping people get up off the ground with a bunch of different contracts and a lot of times with the transgender foundation of america we do help people not get in the red tape with their non-profits because you know they, they have a great idea, they might have some support, and then texas is not very transparent on how to get that stuff done.
Robin:It's not very like user friendly, if you'd say so uh alexis is has helped a lot of people not get stuck in the weeds with that, you know.
Jacob:Yeah, the biggest thing that I'm like stuck on right now because I followed my 501c3 stuff and the IRS takes their time.
Alexis:You know you're going to hate me if I say this, but I'm going to say it anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah, to say it anyway. Yeah, yeah, um, if, if we were, if you were following what we suggested on getting a 501c3 most people get theirs in two to three weeks at the most yep yep I found okay form 1023 easy yeah, but that that's all fine.
Alexis:But I mean they're because you have to work it with the state and federal and there's an order that if you get out of the order they just put it off to the side for a while. Yeah, that's what they do. Which might happen. Yeah, and if you do it in the right order, then what happens is it just flows right on through.
Robin:And again, you're talking about access and education and sometimes you don't know those things when you're doing it. But we've met a lot of people over the years that say, well, hey, I have this idea and I'm like, awesome, before you take steps on that idea, let's talk, you know. And they're like, oh no, I think I got it.
Alexis:And then they're like I think we all got it yes, and then we get a phone call and you know and like one of the things, that with tfa, if it's anything that goes around, what Transgender Foundation of America does, we'll offer a fiscal sponsorship while you're getting your 501c3 so you can still do exactly what you were doing. Then we'll just hand you all the money or anything you got.
Jacob:I'm going to need to talk to you all. Yeah, yeah.
Alexis:We've done 18 of those.
Robin:Well, and sometimes it's good that they went their own way and they didn't ever get her off the ground anyway, like it was just an idea not every idea.
Alexis:Sometimes it works out just fine, and we'll help with that too.
Robin:Yeah, not every idea needs to be a non-profit no but you've got some legs and you're, you're working that and in an ideal world what support do you think you need? Oh, I'm glad you asked that, because I was about to say, um, yeah, like if you're putting on your like magic wand costume now, and you just said what you needed.
Alexis:We're doing comic books now, right.
Robin:Yeah.
Jacob:I don't know Board of Directors because, holy shit, I'm realizing I cannot do all this alone. I have two volunteers, because I put a listing on volunteer match but Board of Directors, and I think what that looks like is people who believe in the vision of where we're going. My vision is the future of mental health and narrative justice, and what that looks like is serving populations like LGBTQ, racial minorities, you know, et cetera, et cetera. I want to expand my work to juveniles too, so it's people who believe in the future of mental health and narrative justice.
Jacob:I can say, like cause I was thinking about this the other day like you know, like white supremacy, for instance, like the, that's all really narrative. It's about who are the villains, who are the heroes. It's about how, how I internalize my worth as a black man and, like you know, it's it's all these stories that I've been fed and people create, and I want to teach people what if we could, um, reclaim our own stories of ourselves? You know, right now the villains are immigrants, transgender people you know I mean the immigrant thing.
Alexis:I always find humorous any large group. Ask anyone that Native American to raise their hand and ask everyone else to stand up, because the standing up people are all immigrants. That's a very good point. I mean, I'm sorry, no, we're all immigrants. Now, you know we immigrated different ways and all like that. But it doesn't matter, unless you're Native American, right, you're an immigrant.
Robin:Right, and I mean that's bringing it back to the real narrative Instead of the ones that were told sold and pressed upon.
Alexis:That's the real deal right there and it's like so we're beating up ourselves.
Robin:Okay, I get that, and it's only now that some history books include that Right. And some just don't, don't, yeah, don't.
Alexis:I mean, the pilgrims weren't exactly native.
Robin:Yeah, I mean the pilgrims weren't exactly native, yeah, or?
Jacob:kind yeah, all true, and had a lot of STDs, but hey, that's not a here nor there.
Alexis:Hey, get your checks, but that's how you get rid of the indigenous population Right.
Robin:But you were saying about narrative and how you're thinking about.
Alexis:So let me ask you a question, because this is one that's been sort of going through, that I'm not clear on Sure, when you're talking about narrative justice, what I see when you say that and it may be wrong, because first time I heard the term was when Robin said that you look at narrative justice, so I've had a long time to think about it.
Alexis:A day or two, something like that, but I presume what that really means is that you're bringing justice to the people that didn't really receive justice for whatever reason, and whatever justice means, by allowing them to express their story, to be heard, to get some closure, hopefully, and those sorts of things, rather than find the person and get them to court and all. To get some closure, hopefully, and those sorts of things, rather than find the person and get them to court and all that I mean. If that happens, that's fine. But am I correct on that, yeah, you're very correct.
Jacob:I think, especially for my perspective of narrative justice, it starts internally. It starts with the stories we tell ourselves. What do we internalize and everything else you said. What do we internalize and everything else you said, like, because I honestly like there are not that many spaces for people that can give us space for our experiences. Hold that space, not project, not give advice, um xyz and um. Narrative justice looks like to me what is the? What is the I want to say correct narrative, but I don't want to use that too harshly what, what is what is a true narrative and what? What power can you take over that?
Alexis:and so does that make yeah, oh yeah, and and, and I mean the thing that I just took from what you just said. Uh, I took it a slightly different way than I think you said it, because when you said what is a true narrative because one of the things that I spend a lot of time thinking about is there's not just one truth I mean there are facts in certain things you know. For instance, you can say, guys, this is a glass on the table, but you don't know anything else about it or how it came about, because it's really just sand, and so you know, I presume there's multiple narratives a lot of times.
Jacob:There are. How do I put it? I think truth is subjective. Let me rephrase you can choose the narrative you want to believe.
Alexis:Yeah, and I was going to say your truth isn't subjective, but truth in general is subjective, right? Yes, exactly.
Jacob:That's a question. Yeah, can you subjective right?
Alexis:Yes, Exactly, that's a question.
Jacob:Yeah, can you repeat the question I made? No, it was a question.
Alexis:I mean I didn't particularly. You just said yes and I'm like wait, I was asking a question, you know. I mean my truth is not subjective, it's mine, but the overall truth on the same topic may be very subjective.
Jacob:The way I see it, yeah, we talk about personal like, just for instance, very I'm very briefed on narcissist psychology, so they choose their own narratives. They choose, like and they'll spend the biggest, tallest, most quote unquote, believable narratives. And if I feel like, if they can choose their narratives, why can't people who want to heal do that too? And that's what taught me that narrative is the. You know you choose your narrative and I think my role in it is like holding the space for you to reclaim yourself.
Alexis:I'm trying not to say what I'm going to say. Anyway, I can't keep my mouth shut. I think we're all very briefed on narcissistic things right now. We may not recognize it. Maybe, like an hour-to-hour briefing like a breaking news that's been broken.
Robin:briefing I mean like you know a lot of briefings, even when we don't want to be briefed. Like how does a brief keep briefing what, even when we don't want to be briefed? Like, like. How does the brief keep briefing me? Like I, like. I thought I was close to off the grid and it still briefs me.
Jacob:Yeah, and his first time he had the national alert thing.
Robin:Oh, yeah, I was like oh my god, I was like, oh no, you can't turn that one off yeah, when that happened, I was like, oh god, he's gonna start sending more messages but what was? Also disturbing was like oh God he's going to start sending more messages. But what was also disturbing was like not everyone got that message.
Jacob:Yeah.
Robin:Our systems are not always workable.
Alexis:They're not, they're not yeah, I was around a bunch of people that got the message and I'm like I didn't get it. They got it. And then I'm like I think I'm okay with this, I'm not going to start to troubleshoot it.
Robin:Yeah, but there are a lot of people that are choosing their narrative every single day, that's for sure, and I mean some people still believe the world's flat. And to which. I'm like you know the Buddhists believe like to wake people up is violent. You know, like like I mean, sometimes you just have to leave people where they're at. But if it's gonna affect, your own health.
Alexis:We are in a crisis from sleeping.
Jacob:Yeah, anything, I agree with them, yeah I want to say too, because we were talking about connections or relationships earlier yeah, yeah I think I've, like you know, I know that I've evolved a lot on like my idea of connections with people because, cause I think stepping into this work means that, you know, I've done a lot of my own healing and work, I have a lot of tools under my belt and, you know, a lot of people have, you know, walked away from me in one way or another. Um and it it triggers abandonment issues. Sure, um, I can say that very plainly it triggers abandonment issues.
Robin:Why are you laughing? That's one of my biggies. She has a nervous laugh for abandonment issues.
Jacob:Just kidding, I didn't take it personally. I was like, oh no, I wasn't.
Alexis:I was just like oh yeah.
Robin:She's like got that one, you got that one. Okay. She's like check that one off, I have that one too, too Well, see, one of the things is if you've been around long enough.
Alexis:You had all of them, especially in our community.
Jacob:You become aware of them as you get older, exactly. I um, I think the big thing I'm learning is that, um, some people don't have the capacity to receive all of who you are. That's true, and how that looks is when I, you know, I've gone on dates after my ex and then, like guys would be like oh my God, have an amazing time XYZ. Never hear from them again.
Robin:Like never hear from them again, like too much, too deep.
Jacob:Yeah, exactly Exactly, and I think they're very surprised that I'm very much somebody that's like mostly intelligent, I've done my work. I'm like, hey, you know, we can date. This is what I'm looking for. Relationship XYZ Very clear to the point. Some guys for a relationship xyz very clear to the point. Some guys are still performing sure, um, you know, you have, I think I think, genuine um quality connection is like far and few but can be done. But I feel like people are doing their own work on themselves and right, um, they can't receive a lot of, they can't receive a lot of what you give, so then they self-sabotage.
Robin:That's probably a big thing that I'm very it's tricky, like you have to go with the space of trust and like it's really tricky. There's a lot of variables. It takes to be in any sort of relationship and and it's hard to find out like what page everyone's on, or if it's even consistent and it changes. That's the truth. Humans change. The truth they may be telling themselves is not the truth you're seeing, and vice versa with you too. Right, like, one of the things I like about you is your commitment to always be learning, and I think that when you're doing this type of work, that is an important skill, and I know a lot of social workers and one of them said to me when I asked them, like how do you do this work? And she said oh, I didn't start off capable of doing this work I had to be repolished.
Robin:I did learn boundaries. I had to learn vulnerability. I had to learn tools. Like people go to school. People, like you know, take a long process, long before they ever get into the depths of some of this us, long before they ever get into the depths of some of this. So, um, I again, those, those, those tools are just helpful, but they're not even perfectly implemented. Like therapists need their own therapist, you know. So I appreciate what it takes and it it's going to be that, like evolving onion, if we get the gift of staying here right, like we're still here, we're figuring it out day by day and it's wonderful to build bridges with you yeah, I man, I appreciate this podcast I mean like it felt good and if we don't get better results in the next election, I'm blaming you.
Alexis:Why me specifically? Your precinct chair, oh, okay so I'm sorry, yeah you're one of them. Now, I know a lot of precinct chairs. I'm blaming all of them not just you okay then some of the people who are above the precinct chairs. I know also who know I'm blaming them I can mobilize my precincts.
Jacob:I think it's about trust and actually listening to them and building that relationship over time. I'm trying to think if I have any other things to say.
Alexis:I was about to ask you if you had anything else to say.
Robin:Well, I have something to say no, what do you got?
Jacob:No, I think the big thing that hangs on my mind is definitely the couple episodes. I made about my ex and how people are uncomfortable, which you know won't matter.
Robin:Yeah, it's never great getting a phone call right before a podcast. So that's what happened, yeah, so no, it was at 9 am.
Jacob:I was venting to my best friend about it, Okay good. You know, I think you know. I want people to know that I didn't make any of those episodes to be petty. That's how it started. Trust me.
Robin:But when I, when I, I.
Jacob:I don't know if you know, but I released a phone call um the night that my ex uh broke up with me over the phone. So I released the full audio phone call. You know, um, but I did that for educational because people really don't know like you could tell people this guy was a narcissist. He did xyz, but I want people to hear exactly what's going on and what I had to go through, and let that be somebody else's motivation to like leave or heal and you mentioned that you usually get like uh releases for the people that are in your podcast, like right in the state of texas.
Robin:I don't think you have to acknowledge that you're recording somebody. Is that right?
Jacob:it's a one-party consent state. You have. You have more legal protection if you change the pitch, which is pitch of his voice has changed okay, it's put in an educational context.
Robin:So there's more legal protection with that okay, well, at least you're knowledgeable about those things.
Alexis:Yeah, yeah, yeah okay I mean, the one thing is that you know the people who don't believe you and, I guess, aren't on your side, but have taken somebody else's side. Honestly, they usually don't matter much at all later.
Robin:Yeah, it's hard when it's fresh and when it's associated with all your groups.
Alexis:I mean the number. When I've seen things like that it's like man, I thought they mattered. They don't.
Jacob:I, I, you know I have to acknowledge my supporters too, because you know there's been a lot of people showing me kindness and compassion and grace and you just concentrate on them and forget the others and your friend episode was what was your friend's name?
Robin:brandon yeah yeah, I mean just a lot of golden nuggets on what friendship is and some of the like real daily issues that people are going through while dating. Right, like there's your, there's your date, your dating life, but then you also have, like your daily life that connects to a lot of different sectors of your capacity, you know, and it does impact your dating life and I loved how brandon highlighted like the relationship got him through some hard days in his life and then the relationship caused hard days in his life.
Robin:Yes, right like we need to hear those realities because all the cookie cutter shows are just like too washed over with.
Robin:You know this disney drama version right, yeah, yeah and and I think it's important to acknowledge the people that do support us, and I think it's important to acknowledge the people that do support us and I think it's important to acknowledge the places we go for support that also cause harm. So if we're there for support, a lot of times there's this vulnerability that happens in churches, support groups, things like this, where you're you're under the uh quote unquote welcoming veil of we're all in this together and then sometimes that could be the place where, because we do let our guard down, because we are under those preconceived notions and that communal agreement, it can go awry when that doesn't actually happen in the actions yes and that is really hard for marginalized communities to have yet another place that they're not supported.
Alexis:We don't have that many places to to be like losing support so I just want to acknowledge that it's even worse than not being supported. It's basically you were sucked in so you're feeling bad about them. Yeah, basically being able to lie to you and then not doing what they said.
Robin:Yeah, so if you're going to support groups and you don't feel the health in the place, please remove yourself before you pick any of that up, because true helpful places do exist and some support spaces go through an unhealthy season and that's very important to acknowledge before there's any place where you're tender and need support, and sometimes you can't foresee that. But if you can foresee like something is off here uh, it is a big world, go somewhere else wow, you said it.
Jacob:you said it good because I you know it came to mind when you were saying. That too was like you know I have been um, that's happened with different groups. Like I'll say that is an experience to where because I used to always be afraid of like man, if I say the wrong thing they're going to kick me up. So with this one especially like it was so funny how we were like vulnerable and personable in the group but then when they were afraid to talk to me, then it defected on like um, company, not company policy, group policy, all these different you know things to like and it's such a common experience for for me, um, I think, as a, as a black gay man, someone doesn't want me in a space that goes from personal to like um, like like not legal but like policy driven, like you know these are the consequences.
Alexis:Yeah, I can tell you, I'm not a black gay man.
Jacob:Yeah, no, okay yeah, thank you.
Alexis:And the same experience happens.
Jacob:I'm a transgender woman where they're white.
Alexis:She's extremely white, she's transparent and and I mean that's normal and you know the big thing about it is it's like it doesn't make it right.
Robin:It's totally not right.
Alexis:But it's not a group for you and, and you know it's basically they're praying on you, as they do a lot of people.
Robin:Yeah, and like maybe literally right. Like I mean, honestly I've been kicked out of churches once they find out who I am and then sometimes they want you to stay and that can create more harm, because sometimes in Texas it can be very abusive and that also happens in support groups, that happens in recovery spaces and again you know, it's just important to leave before the harm continues. Let's leave it at that, and I think that it's responsible to voice that not all those places actually give the care that they're marketing.
Alexis:And to me the big thing is that if you decide it's not right for you, I tend to try not to badmouth them, unless there was an incident specifically, in which case, okay, they did this, which is not okay. But you know, it's like I just wasn't comfortable there so I'm gone.
Robin:But but you know, it's like I just wasn't comfortable there, so I'm gone. Yeah, Sometimes you have to name names to stop the harm and to process and and it sounds like you're working through like what those um actions look like, and the thing I wanted to get to is what do you do for fun? Thank you Um it seems like you might have some like superhero situation or gaming, or I don't know.
Jacob:I play a lot of video games.
Speaker 2:I'm playing a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot face there's a good amount Dragon Ball Z Sparking Zero.
Jacob:I'm a huge Dragon Ball Z fan. You know I watch. I'm binge watching scandal right now yeah, that true crime stuff yeah exactly um play with my dog. I have a two-year-old pit bull mix.
Robin:That's cool um what's the name?
Jacob:trixie that's cool she's like two years old and 50 pounds. She still wants to be carried everywhere.
Robin:Yes, I'm like spoiled I'm like i't.
Alexis:So that's your exercise, that's my exercise, that's my exercise.
Jacob:I, um I. You know I don't get into as many things as I used to, because I think being unemployed takes a lot of mental energy for me.
Robin:For sure.
Jacob:But those are the big things I keep up with.
Robin:Do you find that your gaming community is supportive to you?
Jacob:Um I game solo now because there are so many oh my god homophobic, transphobic. That's like you'll get online and you'll hear like racial slurs, homophobic, like so I. I used to make friends online with people and now I just play solo.
Robin:It's hard to know yeah, like you don't need another broken heart. Well, I this funny story that comes up for me in my mind with alexis. She had a dog one time that was injured, and it was a little yorkie and this little foot got injured and then healed through it and would fake being injured just to be catered to, but with the wrong foot.
Alexis:And so she was like that's not the right foot and the dog would switch.
Alexis:So these dogs, these fur pals of ours, like your dog, might not ever want to just walk on their own now oh my god, you're gonna have to get like one of those little, of course, baby born um backpacks being on the dog's side, but you know, in houston in the summer it's too hot for them to walk on sidewalks, so maybe that's the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, they might need. We won't talk about the grass and inside, oh, oh my gosh.
Jacob:You remind me I got to give my dog her flea treatment later? Yeah, absolutely, got to keep up on that in.
Robin:Houston. So thank you for coming in, thank you for taking care, and we're going to list some resources in the show notes for people who might be dealing with something, and we're going to also just keep pointing to your podcast and your work. So thanks for coming. We'd like to have you back, maybe to talk about some villains or you know, something creative we're going to have those conversations too. I love that.
Jacob:Yeah, thank you for having me on. I want to just highlight, you know, that I feel like I'm a very strong person. I'm very proud of my growth and I love that I turned the pain and alchemized it into growth. And you know my, my vision and my future looks like helping people step into that power too. So thank you so much for having me on.
Robin:It's a life saving thing. I really appreciate it and, and for those of you out there, if you are listening, if you can like, subscribe, share and maybe even contribute to the podcast, that'd be awesome. We'd love to hear from you on your thoughts. We'd love to hear from you if you have other guests that want to come on and you can actually financially contribute, if you want to hit the $3 button or something Like I mean, hey, it adds up right, you could go higher than $3 if you want.
Alexis:I mean yeah, yeah.
Robin:Maybe you're a big spender.
Jacob:I love it so, but bye for now, bye, bye everyone.
